7D have 24p but why not 5DM2

Steven Schuldt · September 3rd, 2009, 04:48 PM

Canon was under a lot of serious pressure for 25p on the 5dmkII from Europe (and less serious pressure for 24p from indie pipsqueaks in the USA). That was before the 7D. Now all that pressure has quadrupled with the entire base of high-end Canon customers (read: 5dmkII customers) feeling either vaguely or entirely burned.

If there is a technical reason that 24p/25p on that camera is simply not possible with a software update, Canon should say so. If there is no reason, Canon should short-circuit this slow-moving PR disaster and announce an update ASAP.

My guess is that they just can't make it work because of hardware limitations (the compression chip has only a couple of modes and you can't add new modes to the camera without literally replacing that chip on the circuit-board).

Chris Hurd · September 3rd, 2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Schuldt

If there is a technical reason that... is simply not possible with a software update, Canon should say so.

Generally speaking, Japanese camera / electronics manufacturers tend not to
do that though. They tend to remain tight-lipped about these sorts of things.

Ethan Cooper · September 3rd, 2009, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Schuldt

Canon was under a lot of serious pressure for 25p on the 5dmkII from Europe (and less serious pressure for 24p from indie pipsqueaks in the USA).

Indie Pipsqueaks, that might be my new favorite term.

Ivan Babko · September 4th, 2009, 09:05 AM

So there are few preproduction bodies out there in right hands (e.g. Phil Bloom). Is there a way to dump 7D firmware and send it to Tramm for experiments ASAP?

Tramm Hudson · September 4th, 2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan Babko

Is there a way to dump 7D firmware and send it to Tramm for experiments ASAP?

There is a chance that my 5D dumping tools will work on the 7D if the CF hardware is sufficiently similar. My hope is that they would be at the same I/O address in memory, so I am guessing that with a few days of hands-on time I'll be able to dump it and start on adding support to Magic Lantern for the 7D. And once that is working, I want to look at how the 7D talks to the DIGIC4 to see if the 5D's chip will respond to the same frame rate settings.

Don Miller · September 4th, 2009, 10:38 AM

It's interesting that the 7D apparently has a higher data rate than the 5DII. Engineers don't do that for the heck of it. Also, the 4gb limit is hit sooner.

Christopher Lovenguth · September 4th, 2009, 10:53 AM

My gut feeling is that there is no way to implement the different FPS on the 5D. If so Canon would totally release this as a firmware update BEFORE announcing the 7D in order to keep the option opened to new purchases of a body that is roughly $1k more. Film making purchases of both these bodies is such a minority anyways that most likely Canon doesn't truly care about this, but, I feel if it just a firmware update they would go ahead with it before the 7D hits the market because new buyers are the target and if you give new buyers two choices one FF and the other cheaper APS, then you can only win as a company.

Conspiracy theories aside, I feel if the software running the 7D exists then it would exist for the 5D if it could be done.

I still have a theory that Canon didn't expect such heavy use (in hours, not units sold) of the 5D for filmmaking that I really feel the hardware isn't going to have a life expectancy we expect it will have and they might be trying to move people over to a body that can survive constant use and abuse as a filmmaking equpiment. I feel this is the reason for the 2 chips in the 7D, it halves the load on the camera, reduces heat most likely, etc. I really think we are going to start seeing burnt out 5D's in the next 7-12 months.

Billy Griffin · September 6th, 2009, 12:12 AM

Well, well, well..... it's funny that my wife's little PowerShot SD 750 will shoot video in 'standard 30fps,' 'fast frame 60fps,' 'compressed 15fps,' and other adjustable frame rates, while the $3000 EOS 5D MkII DOES NOT !!
You cannot convince me that this is a hardware limitation issue !!

What I DO believe is that Canon is holding out on the upgrade, hoping that since we've had a taste of video with the 5D Mk II, we'll all run out and buy another 7D to use as our primary video camera if we need 24fps for cinematography or client needs.

I'm sure there's some other marketing scheme they are convinced of, but in this economy, it may well bite them! As soon as Nikon, Sony, etc. are up to speed on the DSLR video options, they (Canon) may find themselves having a lot of 5D and 7D models sitting around while the competitors are selling their products... because they LISTEN to what their money-spending customers are asking for!

Craig Yates · September 6th, 2009, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Griffin

Well, well, well..... it's funny that my wife's little PowerShot SD 750 will shoot video in 'standard 30fps,' 'fast frame 60fps,' 'compressed 15fps,' and other adjustable frame rates, while the $3000 EOS 5D MkII DOES NOT !!!!!!!!!!

You cannot convince me that this is a hardware limitation issue !!!

I might be wrong, but I think the hardware in the 5D might be slightly different to that in the PowerShot...

Graham Morton · September 6th, 2009, 05:51 AM

well with canon showing all its glory... i give up lol. red on the way.

Bunseng Chuor · September 6th, 2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Morton

well with canon showing all its glory... i give up lol. red on the way.

i give up too.. and my scarlet will on the way.. sorry 7D. but i still love my 5D.

Bill Pryor · September 6th, 2009, 10:06 AM

Only thing...the 7D is here, or will be in only a few weeks, and Scarlet is yet to be seen. And, if rumor is correct, the base Scarlet will have a 2/3" chip, much smaller than the APS-C size chip of the 7D. I too would prefer the 5DMKII, but I don't do enough still photography any more to justify the cost. I shoot some stills for publication and web but they really don't need that level of quality...although they do need to be higher resolution than my old camera is giving me. So I can justify a new still camera, and if it also shoots 24p video, then it would make a nice backup or second camera for my XH A1. If I shot 30fps instead of 24 on everything, I probably could talk myself into spending the money for the 5D MKII.

Billy Griffin · September 6th, 2009, 03:44 PM

Yes, Craig. I realize there's a whole different software level between the PowerShot cameras and the 5D pro cameras. My point was simply that if they can do the adjustable frame rates with a simple camera like that, surely to goodness, something can be done for the video capture of the Canon 5D Mk II ?????????????

Craig Yates · September 6th, 2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Griffin

Yes, Craig. I realize there's a whole different software level between the PowerShot cameras and the 5D pro cameras. My point was simply that if they can do the adjustable frame rates with a simple camera like that, surely to goodness, something can be done for the video capture of the Canon 5D Mk II ?????????????

I'm sure if they'd set out to do that from the start, then sure, they could have. However, it's entirely possible that their design goals simply didn't involve variable frame rates, and that the hardware used as a result doesn't allow for such a thing even if there was a firmware update.

Of course it might be possible, but there's not much use in getting yourself worked up about the possibility that it can be done, and Canon are just holding out for whatever reason. If the 5D doesn't meet your needs in its current state, buy something else that does. It seems a bit disingenious to fork out cash on expensive equipment in the hope that it might eventually be upgraded do what you want it to.

Michael Murie · September 6th, 2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Griffin

I realize there's a whole different software level between the PowerShot cameras and the 5D pro cameras. My point was simply that if they can do the adjustable frame rates with a simple camera like that, surely to goodness, something can be done for the video capture of the Canon 5D Mk II ?????????????

The PowerShot SD 750 shoots at 640 x 480 so I don't see the relevance compared to the 5D.

I really think Christopher is on to something. Given that they already released a software update for the 5D for manual controls (which shows they are willing to update the camera), I think that if it was easy to do lower frame rates on the 5D they would have shipped that before (or at the same time as) the 7D. If nothing else, why push people in Europe to buy the 7D instead of the 5D, just because the 5D doesn't support the "right" frame rates? It's difficult to fathom why they'd do that, unless your conspiracy theory is that they want people in Europe to buy the 7D first, and then in two months, buy a 5D when the frame rate patch ships.

September 3rd, 2009, 04:48 PM	#91
Steven Schuldt Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 90	Look Canon was under a lot of serious pressure for 25p on the 5dmkII from Europe (and less serious pressure for 24p from indie pipsqueaks in the USA). That was before the 7D. Now all that pressure has quadrupled with the entire base of high-end Canon customers (read: 5dmkII customers) feeling either vaguely or entirely burned. If there is a technical reason that 24p/25p on that camera is simply not possible with a software update, Canon should say so. If there is no reason, Canon should short-circuit this slow-moving PR disaster and announce an update ASAP. My guess is that they just can't make it work because of hardware limitations (the compression chip has only a couple of modes and you can't add new modes to the camera without literally replacing that chip on the circuit-board).

September 4th, 2009, 09:05 AM	#94
Ivan Babko New Boot Join Date: May 2009 Location: St. Petersburg, RU Posts: 14	So there are few preproduction bodies out there in right hands (e.g. Phil Bloom). Is there a way to dump 7D firmware and send it to Tramm for experiments ASAP?

September 4th, 2009, 10:38 AM	#96
Don Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 706	It's interesting that the 7D apparently has a higher data rate than the 5DII. Engineers don't do that for the heck of it. Also, the 4gb limit is hit sooner.

September 4th, 2009, 10:53 AM	#97
Christopher Lovenguth Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 85	My gut feeling is that there is no way to implement the different FPS on the 5D. If so Canon would totally release this as a firmware update BEFORE announcing the 7D in order to keep the option opened to new purchases of a body that is roughly $1k more. Film making purchases of both these bodies is such a minority anyways that most likely Canon doesn't truly care about this, but, I feel if it just a firmware update they would go ahead with it before the 7D hits the market because new buyers are the target and if you give new buyers two choices one FF and the other cheaper APS, then you can only win as a company. Conspiracy theories aside, I feel if the software running the 7D exists then it would exist for the 5D if it could be done. I still have a theory that Canon didn't expect such heavy use (in hours, not units sold) of the 5D for filmmaking that I really feel the hardware isn't going to have a life expectancy we expect it will have and they might be trying to move people over to a body that can survive constant use and abuse as a filmmaking equpiment. I feel this is the reason for the 2 chips in the 7D, it halves the load on the camera, reduces heat most likely, etc. I really think we are going to start seeing burnt out 5D's in the next 7-12 months.

September 6th, 2009, 12:12 AM	#98
Billy Griffin Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Enumclaw, WA Posts: 58	Well, well, well..... it's funny that my wife's little PowerShot SD 750 will shoot video in 'standard 30fps,' 'fast frame 60fps,' 'compressed 15fps,' and other adjustable frame rates, while the $3000 EOS 5D MkII DOES NOT !! You cannot convince me that this is a hardware limitation issue !! What I DO believe is that Canon is holding out on the upgrade, hoping that since we've had a taste of video with the 5D Mk II, we'll all run out and buy another 7D to use as our primary video camera if we need 24fps for cinematography or client needs. I'm sure there's some other marketing scheme they are convinced of, but in this economy, it may well bite them! As soon as Nikon, Sony, etc. are up to speed on the DSLR video options, they (Canon) may find themselves having a lot of 5D and 7D models sitting around while the competitors are selling their products... because they LISTEN to what their money-spending customers are asking for!

September 6th, 2009, 05:51 AM	#100
Graham Morton Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Orlando, Fl Posts: 35	well with canon showing all its glory... i give up lol. red on the way.

September 6th, 2009, 10:06 AM	#102
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Only thing...the 7D is here, or will be in only a few weeks, and Scarlet is yet to be seen. And, if rumor is correct, the base Scarlet will have a 2/3" chip, much smaller than the APS-C size chip of the 7D. I too would prefer the 5DMKII, but I don't do enough still photography any more to justify the cost. I shoot some stills for publication and web but they really don't need that level of quality...although they do need to be higher resolution than my old camera is giving me. So I can justify a new still camera, and if it also shoots 24p video, then it would make a nice backup or second camera for my XH A1. If I shot 30fps instead of 24 on everything, I probably could talk myself into spending the money for the 5D MKII.

September 6th, 2009, 03:44 PM	#103
Billy Griffin Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Enumclaw, WA Posts: 58	Yes, Craig. I realize there's a whole different software level between the PowerShot cameras and the 5D pro cameras. My point was simply that if they can do the adjustable frame rates with a simple camera like that, surely to goodness, something can be done for the video capture of the Canon 5D Mk II ?????????????