7D have 24p but why not 5DM2

[Don Miller]

Originally Posted by Alex Chong

Lets do another petition to Canon for adjustable framerate upgrade. I am sure they will listen. If not at least we tried. Guess how we got Canon to give us manual control?

Ahem! anyone would like to take the lead?

We got manual control because we purchased non-canon lenses. Without a financial penalty for canon we may not get 24p.
Canon would be smart to give us 24p. They are often not smart.

[Bill Pryor]

Like some others on here, I've also read that Canon developed video capability for the 5D MKII as a response to Associated Press and Reuters wanting their photographers to also be able to shoot video (thus they avoid paying for a second person on the crew). In fact, I know a newspaper feature writer/photographer who uses the camera in just that manner--primarily for stills but he does an occasional video shoot.

One thing I've learned about equipment over many years is that it is what it is--never buy anything that's not the way you want it when you buy it. The changes you want almost never happen. If you want 24p, you have to buy a camera that shoots 24p. Buying a camera that doesn't when you want it and assuming there will be a software upgrade that will do it is putting way too much faith in the corporate world, in my opinion.

As an example, look at the XH A1--great camera for the money and I love it. I would love it more if one of those programmable buttons on the side would turn on and off the OIS so I wouldn't have to go into the menu every time I put the camera on or take it off the tripod. Should be a firmware upgrade, right? Wrong. The XH A1s model gives you that feature but they didn't put up something for me to download to make my camera do that. I don't know if they could or not. But, I didn't buy that camera thinking that would ever happen. I just assumed it probably never would happen. I would have been incredibly surprised if it had.

It's similar to commercial real estate salesmen. Over many years of renting offices and studios in commercial buildings around the area, there's one thing I learned: they lie. "We're gonna have a restaurant on the top floor...we're putting in new elevators...we're gonna remodel the whole building exterior...we're gonna have a shared conference room with computers and free wifi...we're gonna rebuild all the bathrooms..." and on and on. It never happens. You rent space based on what it is, not on what they say they will do, because they never follow through.

Also, if shooting 24p is the holy grail and you must have it, check out Graham Nattress' effects and/or Magic Bullet. The 5D MKII has been used on more than one feature film as a secondary camera, and they treated the footage in post to do the 24p thing. I've seen some good looking footage from Nattress' effects, and they're cheap. About a hundred bucks and you get the 24p look. If I could afford a 5D MKII, I'd buy one. To me shooting 30 frames per second is a perfectly good tradeoff for that big chip. I prefer 24 fps for the work I do, but it's not critical, just a preference, sort of in the category of I do so because I can. If I couldn't, nobody who sees my final products would ever know the difference. Look at all those documentaries shot for years with the old venerable PD150, and even feature films with early Digibeta cameras, all of which only did 30 fps. All my stuff ends up on the web and 24 is less than 30 so I save a bit of data in the pipeline and I don't have to deinterlace, so I like it. But if I had a 5D MKII I could live without it easily.

As a matter of minor interest, the reporter guy I know with the 5DMKII wants an XH A1 for shooting video. For him, the shallow depth of field is not worth the tradeoff from a dedicated video camera. It's all in what you do and what you want.

[Billy Griffin]

Looks like this clarifies our question...

Dear Billy Griffin:

Thank you for writing to us regarding your 5D Mark II. We value you as a Canon customer and appreciate the opportunity to assist you.

We are always looking to improve our cameras through firmware updates whenever possible, but right now I have no reason to believe that frame-rate control will be added to the 5D Mark II through firmware or hardware updates. With that said, Canon doesn't announce firmware updates until we are ready to make them available to the public, so I don't know what updates we have in development.

I hope that helps, but please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with your Canon equipment.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Nick
Technical Support Representative

[Jon Fairhurst]

The only thing clarified is that we won't hear anything official about any firmware release until it is ready to be downloaded - if ever. The "I have no reason to believe" line is just another way of saying that the 5D Mark II is being sold based on its current specs, period.

[Daniel Bates]

It's not as though Canon is having any difficulty selling 5D2's at the moment. I had a difficult time procuring one just recently, and the camera has been out for approximately a year.

[Daniel Browning]

Originally Posted by Don Miller

Why do you think Canon is constantly struggling to keep camera bodies and 'L' lenses in stock?

I was only talking about the 5D1, not their other bodies or L lenses.

Originally Posted by Don Miller

Where do you get your information?

My own two eyes. I followed the price and availability closely because I planned to buy one. The used 5D I got was from a friend who paid $1,750 for it brand new. I didn't print out the rebates or the B&H cart, but let me see if I can go back after the fact and substantiate any of my claims with a few Google searches...

* August 2005, list price announced at $3,300:

Canon EOS 5D Review: 2. Specifications: Digital Photography Review

* October 1, Canon 5D first hits the shelves for $3,200 and $3,300 at B&H, J&R, Amazon:

Sep, Oct 2005: Canon EOS News and What's New at The-Digital-Picture.com

* December 2005, price dropped to $2999 at B&H and most retailers

Amazon has it for $2999: Canon EOS-1D / 1Ds / 5D Forum: Digital Photography Review

* December 2005: Brick and Mortar stores dropped to $3050, reported slow sales:

Canon 5d sales slow....... - Canon Digital Photography Forums

Adray Camera is another big store that couldn't move them.

* April 2006: $300 rebate

NEWS! - Canon: Rebates on Rebel XT, 5D and more

(This one lasted until July.)

* October 2006: $600 (!) rebate

http://www.usa.canon.com/app/pdf/Pro...Form_Oct06.pdf

* October 2007: $2,200 (!) at Adorama. $1800 after Pixma rebate+sale

Sep, Oct 2007: Canon EOS News and What's New at The-Digital-Picture.com

You could combine it with the Pixma printer rebate, then sell the printer, for a final price of $1800 on the 5D.

* July 2008: $1800 (!!) after instant rebate at J&R, Adorama, and Amazon.

Jul, Aug 2008: Canon EOS News and What's New at The-Digital-Picture.com

That was in the face of the "official" MSRP that dropped from $3,300 to $2,500:

Canon EOS 5D Digital SLR

EDIT: Roger Cicala operates a large rental house (lensrentals.com). Today he said:
"...I can't give you Canon's sales figures, but I can give you figures from a large rental house: we stock 3 times more 5D2s than we did 5Ds at their peak (and that was our previously best renting camera). The 5D2 rents more than 3 times more frequently than any other camera we've ever stocked and the number would be higher except we never could get enough to keep them in stock."

Also, there are people tracking 5D2 serial numbers, that think it indicates 4X higher sales than the original 5D in its first year.

In short, the 5D broke all sorts of records for how fast the price dropped, how far it dropped, and how steep and frequent the rebates were. It was unprecedented for Canon. I think it indicates that they greatly overestimated the sales of that unit, and I think that contributed to them greatly *under* estimating the sales of the 5D2. My guess is that the video feature blew the doors off their expectations.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Billy Griffin

Looks like this clarifies our question...

This is same letter I got when Canon said there would be no firmware update to the Canon 5D Mark II to give us manual control.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Daniel Browning

...In short, the 5D broke all sorts of records for how fast the price dropped, how far it dropped, and how steep and frequent the rebates were. It was unprecedented for Canon. I think it indicates that they greatly overestimated the sales of that unit, and I think that contributed to them greatly *under* estimating the sales of the 5D2. My guess is that the video feature blew the doors off their expectations.

Excellent analysis, Daniel!

[Bill Binder]

Originally Posted by Don Miller

We got manual control because we purchased non-canon lenses. Without a financial penalty for canon we may not get 24p.
Canon would be smart to give us 24p. They are often not smart.

Oh hell yeah there's a financial penalty. There's going to be hoards of people who would have bought a 5D2 if it had 24p that are instead going to opt for a 7D. That's leaving a whole lot of dough on the table if it's as simple as providing 24p in a 5D2 firmware update. That point will certainly not be lost on the bean counters. My thought on this is if it is technically possible, they will do it for this reason alone. Also, I actually take Chuck's comment as a positive when reading between the lines.

[Jacob Mason]

Originally Posted by Don Miller

We got manual control because we purchased non-canon lenses. Without a financial penalty for canon we may not get 24p.
Canon would be smart to give us 24p. They are often not smart.

That is quite possibly the best point to make when figuring out why 24/25p implementation on the 5Dmk2 isn't a priority for them.
That, and when somebody said: "hey, these indie filmmakers are dedicated, persistent, and resourceful...howabout instead of just giving them the 24p via firmware update, now knowing how desperately they want it, we make them buy it for the low price of $1700...They'll do it"

[Jacob Mason]

Originally Posted by Tramm Hudson

The difference is that automobile manufacturers provide service manuals so that you can tune your own car.

I'm certainly hoping for a firmware update from Canon for the 5D Mark II. I don't believe there to be a hardware reason that slower frame rates would cause any problems: the T1i does 20 fps with a single DIGIC4. The higher frame rates, like 720p60 could certainly use the dual DIGIC chips, especially to reduce vertical aliasing during the downsample or to reduce the effective scanrate of the electronic shutter.

Another great point that I've been expressing elsewhere.
Since they're capable of dropping 10 frames with no discernable increase in rolling shutter artifacts or other glitches, why not 6 fewer frames?
If there was enough lead time, I'd propose an experiment to test and identify Canon's motivation for implementing certain features on the 7D and not the 5D via a strategically timed 24p/25p firmware hack two weeks before the 7D launches. We could observe how quickly after an unidentified number of 7D orders are cancelled that Canon tries to shut down the spread of the 24p/25p hack, thus validating the hypothesis that Canon selectively chose not to implement 24p/25p on the 5Dmk2 not for technological reasons, but other reasons.
Though, I don't think we really need an experiment as time and energy consuming as that to make that point.

[Bill Binder]

Originally Posted by Jacob Mason

That is quite possibly the best point to make when figuring out why 24/25p implementation on the 5Dmk2 isn't a priority for them.
That, and when somebody said: "hey, these indie filmmakers are dedicated, persistent, and resourceful...howabout instead of just giving them the 24p via firmware update, now knowing how desperately they want it, we make them buy it for the low price of $1700...They'll do it"

Not so sure myself. Like I said before, if you have nothing right now, it's going to be much more tempting to buy a 7d if 24p is important to you, so that's a potentially lost 5D sale right there, so less cash to Canon. Then, for folks who already have a 5D2 and dump it to buy a 7D instead, well again, there's one more 5D2 on the used market and one less person buying a new 5D2. For those who might buy a 7D and keep their 5D2, then again, they might have bought a second 5D2 if it had 24p, plus if they are willing to own two bodies like that, they probably would have bought two anyway (pretty much every serious photographer is going to have at least two good bodies, same goes for videographers too, no?). If it's technically possible, and given the current product lineup (the 5D2 being up market from the 7D), they'd be fools to not provide 24p if it's possible.

[Wayne Avanson]

Indeed Bill, I have been considering a second 5D2 but now will probably go for the 7D sometime in the next few months. (because it's cheaper)

Voting with the ol wallet.

Avey

[Billy Griffin]

My company was in the process of planning to purchase two 5D Mark IIs, but now we will most likely consider going another route entirely. If Canon does not offer support and continued improvements on their equipment, then we may look at some of the Sony video options.

[Bill Binder]

Originally Posted by Wayne Avanson

Indeed Bill, I have been considering a second 5D2 but now will probably go for the 7D sometime in the next few months. (because it's cheaper)

Voting with the ol wallet.

Avey

Originally Posted by Billy

My company was in the process of planning to purchase two 5D Mark IIs, but now we will most likely consider going another route entirely. If Canon does not offer support and continued improvements on their equipment, then we may look at some of the Sony video options.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. THREE less 5D2 sales right there, and we aren't even trying. There's no way Canon doesn't realize this.