canon Eos C200 or other Cine camera for action

[Richard Kane]

Hi
I am thinking of upgrading from a canon xf 100 and dive into the world of Cinema Video.
I am a pro consumer. i shoot a lot of video of dogs sheep herding in Scotland.
Do you think the Canon c200 will have too much rolling shutter artifact for that type of shooting? I plan on doing a lot of handheld shooting. Would i be better off with a different camera. what is attractive is the advanced autofocus of the canon for run and gun shooting also considering the sony Alpha.
Also does anyone have an idea when the Canon will actually be available for purchase?
Would a Blackmagic be a better choice as it has a global shutter?

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Richard Kane

Would a Blackmagic be a better choice as it has a global shutter?

Blackmagic does not have a global shutter. You should stick with what you have, it makes little financial sense to purchase gear of this type when you won't be earning enough to pay it back.

[Richard Kane]

i have to respectively disagree, not everyone produces art for money
I have great satisfaction creating movie's just for me

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Richard Kane

i have to respectively disagree, not everyone produces art for money. I have great satisfaction creating movie's just for me

That's not what I said at all. There's no reason for you to spend money to create your art for no money.

[Richard Kane]

what i am looking for is a "more cinematic" appearance to my films, I can not achieve this with the lens on my xf100. I have lots of canon L lenses that I could use for the C200, which seems rather inexpensive for what you get. I have out grown the xf100. just looking o see what the next step up would be. I really don't think a decision on what gear you buy should just be related to the amount of money the gear generates.

[Richard Kane]

Now that I have been advised on how to spend my money lets get back to questions regarding gear.

I was under the impression the black magic mini 4.6 URSA did have a global shutter?

[Noa Put]

Yes, Black magic has camera's with a global shutter but as far as I know BMD has not introduced a global shutter on their newest models, the older ones with a global shutter are this model: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...camera_4k.html and this one https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...al_cinema.html
They are difficult camera's to operate and to grade, especially if you are used to shooting with a xf100 and I wouldn't recommend them for your purpose, if you wouldn't like them and plan to sell you probably would find it difficult to get rid of them.

About rolling shutter, if you want a global shutter camera your options are quite limited, you have teh sony f55, canon c700 but those are very expensive and the Aja cion but that one is just like the black magic camera not exactly a run and gun camera. It's difficult to say how the rolling shutter is on the c200 without real world tests but it can't be that bad that it will ruin your shots unless you are covering a tennismatch from the publics point of view :)

If you want "cinematic" then my question would be what your definition of cinematic is?

If you have the budget for a c200 and if you already have a lot of canon lenses then I'd say, why not? Philip Bloom did sum up it up nicely in below video what you can expect, the c200 is a big step up from your xf100 but is one of the better run and gun camera's out there that is production ready right out of the box. It basically is a c100 on steroids but if you don't need 4K then the c100 mark II is also a very good and much cheaper option.

YouTube (Short URL)

[Richard Kane]

I was just shooting with xf100 today the biggest short coming is the lack of depth of field.
I really think the key is having interchangeable lenses. It would nice to be able to use primes when I am not shooting action. It seems the c200 is very flexible.It can be used in a studio setting or for run and gun. I also find the xf100 difficult to manual focus

[Noa Put]

In that case the Super 35mm sensor will give you a much shallower dof then your xf100 ever can, manually focusiing should be easy enough if you use peaking and/or magnified focus (if that is available) but if you use fly by wire lenses that still might be a bit of a challenge. Canon has one of the best autofocussing systems so you could just tap the screen and let the camera do the work but don't expect it to be failsafe, if you can't repeat a shot then manual is often a better choice.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Originally Posted by Richard Kane

...i shoot a lot of video of dogs sheep herding in Scotland.
Do you think the Canon c200 will have too much rolling shutter artifact for that type of shooting? I plan on doing a lot of handheld shooting. Would i be better off with a different camera.... advanced autofocus... run and gun shooting... also considering the sony Alpha.
Also does anyone have an idea when the Canon will actually be available for purchase?
Would a Blackmagic be a better choice as it has a global shutter?

I support your desire to make the films you want with the tools you want. One of my gigs is teaching in a community organization that encourages and supports people in making personal films and documentaries. Some professionals worry about their business opportunities shrinking as the capabilities of relatively inexpensive gear continues to grow and grow. Not me. I think it's great that more people are making more films! If you've got money to spend on your personal projects more power to you!

I don't know much about Sony Alpha or Blackmagic, having never used them. A viewfinder is very helpful in shooting out of doors - you may not use it all the time, but certainly at least some. For run and gun shooting the ergonomics of the camera become very important. I've shot a few DSLRs, I much prefer handling a camcorder, with hardware buttons and dials for most-used controls. I don't think rolling shutter will be of concern with what you're shooting.

Having been raised on Sony Broadcast gear, I have become a Canon Cinema fanboy! I really like all their Super-35 C-series gear. The glass is great too. The uncorrected/ungraded in-camera color in 8-bit looks great when correctly exposed in standard or Wide DR profiles. Available CLog, when the scene or project calls for it.

In my opinion, autofocus has become a professional tool with Canon's DPAF tech. I'd recommend the C100 series to you, but, DPAF is up another notch with the C200, gaining touch-screen focus point selection and improved tracking. That's a great tool! I've used touch-screen DPAF on Canon DSLRs - the focus point selection and tracking is very helpful.

At least it is improved according to C200 reviews ;-) But, DPAF really is great, and improvements are meaningful.

I don't know how you shoot telephoto of dogs working with sheep without a good tripod and head. Image Stabilization helps up to a point, but won't you need to be shooting telephoto and maybe super-telephoto... a lot? Have you used a shoulder rig, a monopod, a tripod enough to understand what they do?

And, touch-screen really only works well when you have a hand free to use it. (Tripod!)

The C200 ships this month, supposedly. The usual retailers are accepting pre-orders.

However, for all my praises, it is a *lot* of camera! Do you feel you have the skills to put a cinema-style camera through it's paces, getting to the goodness it's capable of? Most people making the jump from a traditional camcorder to a camera like this are going to *really* miss the zoom rocker control! How much do you zoom during shots? There is the new Canon 18-80mm servo zoom lens that goes from reasonably wide to moderate telephoto for under $6,000...

[Richard Kane]

I shoot with a tripod mostly , was thinking of getting a steady cam. I also have used a drone and even occasionally an iPhone 7 plus with an osmo. I realize the c200 is a lot more camera than i need. What i have found in the past is sometimes when you buy a tool that requires more knowledge and skill than you previously had. The device it self will inspire you to reach new levels. I would not buy the camera and let it go to waste. Just the opposite I was thinking in enrolling into some film classes to learn more about the art I can afford teh camera. Will just have to save up for teh battery charger which is not included ;)

[Rob Cantwell]

i'm not that familiar with the Canon video cams, but the C200 looks like a big upgrade, it doesn't have global shutter but is a Super 35mm with a big feature set. Depending on what lens you have this could be very good for it's intended mission. The C100 Mark II is another choice, it has a 4K sensor but down-converts to 1080P output, 4K isn't everything! eh?

The Black Magic Mini 4.6 URSA does not have a Global Shutter, but I can understand how a person could get confused by that seeing they promised it would have it, at one point prior to its release.

I notice the other BM cams are not getting great reviews though!

Rolling Shutter Jello Effect has been addressed in a lot of new cameras, the bigger the sensor of course the more pronounced the effect may be. But theres also software to correct it these days, and of course stabilisation procedures to reduce it etc. so there are choices. All depends on other factors too - panning speed etc.

I presume you want to upgrade to take advantage in advanced AF technology that has been introduced since the XF 100 has been introduced. As for manual focusing it's something to learn, I've had so many things go wrong on me using AF that I rarely rely on it any more. It's hard to learn but practise makes it easier.

Not having Global Shutter isn't the end of the world.

Is the reach of the Canon XF 100 enough for what you intend shooting, the XF 200 would give you much more reach.

The Sony FS5 has a system where it can double the range of a lens attached, so for instance if you had something like a EF 300mm f/2.8L you could effectively, with an adapter use it as a 600mm lens.

I don't see any problem with someone upgrading, people do it all the time!

Course you might be suffering, like a lot of us do, from GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome)

:-)

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Rob Cantwell

I don't see any problem with someone upgrading, people do it all the time! Course you might be suffering, like a lot of us do, from GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome)

Exactly. And, in this case, he's not using his gear to make money. One person at least needs to say, "Whoa, slow down, do you really need to spend it?"

Some people can make a fortune betting all they have on red in Vegas, however, it's irresponsible not to at least say they might be making a terrible decision.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Rob Cantwell

Course you might be suffering, like a lot of us do, from GAS

I think most of us, incl me, suffer a bit from GAS but if you still have a xf100 which is a camera that was released in 2011 means you probably hold on to your camera a lot longer then most of us do. That's the opposite of GAS. :)

Originally Posted by Richard Kane

I realize the c200 is a lot more camera than i need. What i have found in the past is sometimes when you buy a tool that requires more knowledge and skill than you previously had. The device it self will inspire you to reach new levels. I would not buy the camera and let it go to waste. Just the opposite I was thinking in enrolling into some film classes to learn more about the art I can afford the camera.

If you really want to test your knowledge and skill then you need to get a Black Magic camera, I have their "pocket" cinema camera which is also a handful to handle, especially when you shoot raw. But like I said, I don't think black magic camera's are for you. You will find the c100/200 line of camera's are much more forgiving and easier to operate. Personally I'd get a c200 if I already had canon glass, if you use it for a few years and plan to sell it they probably will be waiting in line for it. :)

[Barry Goyette]

Geez, Gary. Let the poor guy have a new camera if he wants. The vast majority of all types of cameras in the world are bought, using money, by people who have no intention of making money with them.

I've been a full time professional photographer and video producer my entire adult life, and I've never bought a new camera because it would "make me money" (yet...they all a have). I've bought them because I wanted them, I bought them because I wanted what they offered me, not because some client would pay me. (most of my clients have no interest what I shoot with as long as I give them the quality they are used to from me).

And there are certainly a lot of people out there producing "art" for art itself, and they require the tools they require regardless of the judgment of others who have no idea what they need.

Getting to Richard's questions. The "rolling shutter" on the C200 and C300 II is among the best (fastest) in the business, in general use you won't see any objectionable artifacts from using it. Global shutters are rare, and used mostly for specialty needs (lightning effects for instance) because they typically limit dynamic range (noticeably, at least from what a sensor is capable of with a rolling shutter). It is highly unlikely that you would need or want a global shutter above what the capabilities of the C200 are.

Yes..generally, the C200 will have the potential to give a more cinematic look than your xf100, due to its increased dynamic range, raw capabilities and larger sensor.

Virtually all canon EF and EF-S lenses will work with the DPAF and face detection...some better than others. The newer STM lenses are smoother, quieter and slower...

Other cameras? To me the big questions regarding the C200 would be do you need 4k and specifically 4kp60, do you want to deal with RAW processing (although the 4:2:0 footage I've seen looks good and grades nicely). If you don't need those things you might want to look at a C100mark II, as it will still be a large step up from what you have. Sony, black magic, and now Panasonic make lower cost cinema cameras that will all be excellent choices.

One thing to think about will be that any of these large sensor cameras will be much harder to keep in focus than your xf100. The DPAF on the C200 seems to be the best implementation of that technology yet, but will likely occasionally or often struggle when following an erratically moving sheepdog. You might want to consider renting one first to make sure it will do what you want.

The C200 started shipping in the past couple of days, although there's probably something of a backorder wait for new orders.