C300 Mark II No Magnified Focus Assist During Recording

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Barry Goyette

Yeah Gary. I think you've made your point that you'd prefer magnified peaking during recording. I get it. Not suggesting that DPAF is a substitute for that, for you.

Here's a helpful life tip for you, Barry. If you're just going to rudely dismiss someone's answer, then perhaps you shouldn't ask why myself and others have second thoughts?

[William Martz]

Barry, you are correct in stating that if you up the ISO in a low light scene the AF will continue to work for a while till the scene becomes to dark for the DPAF to lock on. That's a bonus.

Gary, it is what it is relating to no magnification while recording. However, you could buy yourself another monitor (smallHD 702) and magnify to your hearts content. I personally don't know how you can achieve focus using the tiny LCD screen on the mark ll when recording at 4K. I have been shooting wildlife at 5K on our Red Epic for almost 4 years using a 9" monitor on camera and a FS 14" monitor with an SDI connection using a Cmotion wireless follow focus system and still find it hard to achieve focus all of the time. On our mark ll I have 2 smallHD 702's. One is used for framing and the other is always in the magnify mode. I would never think to use the included tiny LCD that comes with the mark ll for focusing at 4K at big apertures. In life, when you face a problem, don't sit around and bitch about it. Find a way to resolve the problem and become a better man at the same time. By the way, the smallHD 702 monitors are perfect for this job and the mark ll is the best camera on the market for what we do.

Bill Martz

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

Here's a helpful life tip for you, Barry. If you're just going to rudely dismiss someone's answer, then perhaps you shouldn't ask why myself and others have second thoughts?

Ah, Gary. I love you man. Don't go reading rudeness into any thing I say. It's not intended. (and sorry it was taken that way). There was even a smiley face. And I certainly didn't dismiss your answer..In fact I agreed with it, just letting you know that I get it. So you don't have to tell me any more. :-)

As William says ( welcome, by the way)...and as I said earlier: The best way to ensure focus on these cameras is with an 1:1 monitor. Magnification and peaking is an adequate tool, but it's not 1:1 and regardless...right now we don't have it. Canon monitors these boards, so hopefully we'll see a fix. Until then, bug your dealer, or your rep. I'll reach out to mine too.

Curious though. In your shooting with DPAF on this camera, what gammas have you been working with? I've really been staying away from CLog2 because I'm not ready on the grading side, so I don't really know if my theory is even a possibility. That was my purpose in posting it.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by William Martz

Gary, it is what it is relating to no magnification while recording.

And I don't accept that. The whole purpose of spending the money to get a C300 Mark II was to get a self-contained professional camera system. The A7R II will do magnified focus assist while recording 4K, at two levels of zoom even. The C100 Mark II, the camera I am upgrading from, will do this as well. The combination of peaking with a magnified zoom is what ensures everything is in focus, and, like I said, otherwise, with simply peaking on the whole scene and DPAF, I can never truly be sure in the field.

However, you could buy yourself another monitor (smallHD 702) and magnify to your hearts content.

Your solution to purchase a SmallHD 702 is simply not workable for me. First, it's an additional $1500 on top of the $16,0000 I spent already on this professional camera. Second, it's now a 7" monitor that must be bolted onto the camera, and it comes with its own batteries that now must be maintained. I have an Atomos Shogun already, but the whole idea was getting away from always needing an external recording for better quality footage from cameras that shoot a version of AVCHD internally, so why would I want to go back to bolting on the Shogun with it's size and heavy L series Sony batteries I now have to charge (and make sure I have a charger for) when I have an expensive camera that should have what I need and not leave me hanging?

I personally don't know how you can achieve focus using the tiny LCD screen on the mark ll when recording at 4K.

Because you don't know how accurate magnified assist + peaking can me. Again, it works great on the Sony A7R II in 4K.

I have been shooting wildlife at 5K on our Red Epic for almost 4 years using a 9" monitor on camera and a FS 14" monitor with an SDI connection using a Cmotion wireless follow focus system and still find it hard to achieve focus all of the time.

Because you are not using magnified assist with peaking.

On our mark ll I have 2 smallHD 702's. One is used for framing and the other is always in the magnify mode.

On your shoulder? Great that you don't have to worry about that, but run-and-gun shooting is pretty routine for me, in addition to having the light support gear necessary for a solo shooter. Your solution is too much weight, and is both a danger to my physical well-being to have to run like that, and also impractical for use on the lighter-weight support gear I have to transport by myself.

In life, when you face a problem, don't sit around and bitch about it. Find a way to resolve the problem and become a better man at the same time.

No need to be insulting, Bill. What do you think I'm doing with the camera? You made an erroneous assumption in order to try to be insulting, and that's not cool.

Originally Posted by Barry Goyette

Ah, Gary. I love you man. Don't go reading rudeness into any thing I say. It's not intended. (and sorry it was taken that way).

Thanks, Barry. It was out of the blue, and I think your smiley was a bit too much later in the post. I was merely answering your curiosity.

Canon monitors these boards, so hopefully we'll see a fix. Until then, bug your dealer, or your rep. I'll reach out to mine too.

I have been doing that. Constantly.

Curious though. In your shooting with DPAF on this camera, what gammas have you been working with?

There is no point in shooting with Clog on the C300 Mark II in my useage of it. I bought the thing to get away from 8-bit and to have more resiliency in the image. To that end, I plan on shooting a lot of 12-bit instead of merely 4K (which I've yet to really be asked for that, it's nice to have, but there will be plenty of 1080/2K shooting for the time being). Clog hinders the full potential of the image, so I'm always on Clog2 at this point.

[Barry Goyette]

Clog on the C300 mark ii is 10 bit or 12 bit. Not 8 bit. It's actually quite lovely. In fact...if you don't have a 15 stop scene to worry about, CLog probably has more "resiliency" than Clog 2, as the encoding is closer to where you'll end up. (fwiw, canon claims Clog it has 15 stops of DR as well, albeit with more of it below middle grey in the shadows).

Also, For what it's worth, I tested Clog and Clog 2 with DPAF this afternoon. It works a lot better with CLog, and probably most of the other gammas, than it does with Clog2. In the situations I've used it in, it is faster, and far more accurate than the other imperfect part of the imaging chain (that would be this operator), magnified peaking or not.

[William Martz]

Bill Martz:
Gary, it is what it is relating to no magnification while recording.

Gary:
And I don't accept that. The whole purpose of spending the money to get a C300 Mark II was to get a self-contained professional camera system. The Cwill do magnified focus assist while recording 4K, at two levels of zoom even.

Bill Martz:
In that case you should have read the online user manual to discover the lack of magnifying when in the record mode BEFORE purchasing the camera. Also, considering the fact that you brought the A7R II into the discussion as an example was poor judgement.

Gary:
Your solution to purchase a SmallHD 702 is simply not workable for me. First, it's an additional $1500 on top of the $16,0000 I spent already on this professional camera.

Bill Martz:
Again, if you would have done your homework by reading the user manual you could have circumvented your frustration. Secondly, if purchasing a $16,000 camera breaks your business budget you probably should have bought the A7R II .

Gary:
Because you don't know how accurate magnified assist + peaking can me. Again, it works great on the Sony A7R II in 4K.

Bill Martz:
I have been shooting wildlife at 5K on our Red Epic for almost 4 years using a 9" monitor on camera and a FS 14" monitor with an SDI connection using a Cmotion wireless follow focus system and still find it hard to achieve focus all of the time

Gary:.
Because you are not using magnified assist with peaking.

Bill Martz:
If you understood what I wrote in my last post you should realize that our capabilities dwarf yours in respect to technical issues.

Gary:
On your shoulder? Great that you don't have to worry about that, but run-and-gun shooting is pretty routine for me, in addition to having the light support gear necessary for a solo shooter. Your solution is too much weight, and is both a danger to my physical well-being to have to run like that, and also impractical for use on the lighter-weight support gear I have to transport by myself.

Bill Martz:
My opinion is that you bought the wrong camera for your business or you need more help with your jobs. To express it politely, I think you should live within your means which would give you a calmer life.

Gary, I am not trying to be mean or hurtful, I just believe in being rational when having discourse with fellow humans.

Bill Martz

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Barry Goyette

Clog on the C300 mark ii is 10 bit or 12 bit. Not 8 bit.

Clog was optimized for the 8-bit 12-stop C300 Mark I. Clog2 is optimized for the 10-bit 15-stop C300 Mark II. Sure, you can use Clog in all of the modes, but you won't get the most information that can be retained.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by William Martz

In that case you should have read the online user manual to discover the lack of magnifying when in the record mode BEFORE purchasing the camera. Also, considering the fact that you brought the A7R II into the discussion as an example was poor judgement.

First off, Bill, please learn how to quote properly. It makes your posts hard to process since you can't figure out how to use the "Quote" function at the bottom right of the posts themselves.

Second, the user manual says nothing about magnified focus assist not working during record. I suggest you read the user manual yourself before you try to lecture me about it.

Third, it's not poor judgement at all, and it's asinine of you to even say that sort of thing.

Secondly, if purchasing a $16,000 camera breaks your business budget you probably should have bought the A7R II.

I do own the A7R II in addition to the C300 Mark II. That was very clear in my post to you. Reading comprehension is apparently not your strong suit.

If you understood what I wrote in my last post you should realize that our capabilities dwarf yours in respect to technical issues.

No they don't, but please, share some footage.

My opinion is that you bought the wrong camera for your business or you need more help with your jobs.

Your opinion is clearly erroneous on practically everything you have expressed so far.

I just believe in being rational when having discourse with fellow humans.

Bill, you have yet to display anything rational.

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

Clog was optimized for the 8-bit 12-stop C300 Mark I. Clog2 is optimized for the 10-bit 15-stop C300 Mark II. Sure, you can use Clog in all of the modes, but you won't get the most information that can be retained.

Gary, don't ever change :-). Lets just consider my comments as being for the rest of the people who might be listening in.

For the record, there are many times that CLog would be a better option with this camera. In our preliminary tests with Clog2 we saw banding along a neutral gradated background immediately as we tried to grade it. This is no surprise. There are simply fewer tones available per stop in the mid tones of CLog2 compared to CLog. The CLog on the new camera is vastly improved (mostly due to the extended bit depth but also to the extended white balance range) and in many situations, it may capture all of the range of the scene. (overcast days, controlled studio situations, and really almost any exterior that isn't back lit). It is also far easier to grade, and it works really well with the focusing aids of the camera.

I'm not sure that I personally would ever use CLog2 as gamma of preference in the run and gun situations that Gary describes. To me it's a bit finicky for that, it hampers the use of DPAF, and run and gun generally has a slightly lower set of requirements, usually in the lack of budget for a professional colorist. When we start using CLog2 it will probably be in location interiors where we need to handle direct sunlight through a window, or on the rare occasion when we're shooting into the sun (and for some reason want to hold detail in the sky around it. :-)

To each his own though. What's great about a camera like the C300II is that it offers generally elegant solutions for many types of workflows.

And Gary, you and William should kiss and make up. When the moderators wake up and read that shite from yesterday. You're both going to get a hand-slapping.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Barry Goyette

In our preliminary tests with Clog2 we saw banding along a neutral gradated background immediately as we tried to grade it.

Did you use a LUT? The Canon provided one or something like ImpulZ?

[Mark Dobson]

Just clocked into this thread and, sorry to interrupt the arguments but, could one of you lucky C300mk2 owners confirm that there is no magnified focus assist whilst recording even when no autofocus functions have been turned on?

Whilst filming interviews with my C300 I am constantly pressing the magnify button to reassure myself that all is well on the focus front.

thanks

[Barry Goyette]

Hi Mark,

I've heard this reported on other sites, but the answer is no. The way you turn off autofucus as far as I can tell is at the lens (just like canon still cameras) the only features you can turn on and off with the camera are face tracking and the focus guides. Anyway, with everything off, and the lens turned off, you don't get magnification when recording.

While filming interviews, I'd imagine that you'd have your talent well lit. The DPAF with face tracking should be more perfect than you could ever be. If you need more trust than that, then canon offers a second sdi port now, so a full size (or as William mentioned, a small 1080p) monitor is always the best option.

I miss the punch-in too. Because I'd come to rely on it. Canon's added a lot of focusing features that we will, in time, come to rely on. As the punch-in wasn't 1:1, it wasn't perfect, but you trusted it. I think the same will hold true for these newer approaches. For those who are unhappy, hopefully Canon is listening and changes this feature. It's hard for me to imagine it was a "mistake" but rather a decision on their part. The new monitor port has put stresses on the system (for instance, you can't run to HDMI, SDI, LCD and EVF all at once)...so they are probably dealing with some processing management with this one. That doesn't mean it can't be changed. It really hasn't affected my workflow much (I'm more likely to tote a monitor along on interviews), and any deficit it's caused is strongly overridden by many of the new features in my opinion.

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by Gary Huff

Did you use a LUT? The Canon provided one or something like ImpulZ?

No. I set up a neutral scene "torture test" in the studio with 15-16 stops of range, (12 of those stops were along a sheet of background paper) specifically to see if there were any breaks or weak areas. Canon Log exhibited it's typical toastiness in the highlights, but with much more flexibility and smoothness in the mid-tones and shadows than before. Clog2 has really creamy highlights, flattened mid tones and slightly posterized, noisy shadows. Minor mid tone adjustments to the Clog revealed a low to moderate amount of banding thru the mid-tones. In a normal scene this would never be noticeable, but it would concern me if I was shooting in a lower contrast scene and trying to build contrast through the mid-tones (a really common grade for all log gammas). I don't see Clog2 as a "use it for everything" gamma. Just doesn't make sense to record 15 stops of range when the scene doesn't warrant it. In those situations I'd prefer a gamma with more gradations in the mid tones like the "new" Clog.

That said, I haven't tested the 12bit yet and so I don't know whether there is benefit to that workflow. Theoretically it should have more gradations. But that really depends how clean the signal is coming through the processing pipeline.

[Mark Dobson]

Originally Posted by Barry Goyette

Hi Mark,

I've heard this reported on other sites, but the answer is no. The way you turn off autofucus as far as I can tell is at the lens (just like canon still cameras) the only features you can turn on and off with the camera are face tracking and the focus guides. Anyway, with everything off, and the lens turned off, you don't get magnification when recording..

Ok - thanks for that information. Sounds like Canon have made a bit of a boo-boo here. It's not a deal breaker but certainly something that would really irritate me and hopefully Canon will put this very basic feature back onto the camera on one of the inevitable future firmware updates.

[Gary Huff]

Originally Posted by Mark Dobson

hopefully Canon will put this very basic feature back onto the camera on one of the inevitable future firmware updates.

Absolutely, and please, sooner rather than later.