C100 Mark II -- Mostly About Waveform

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Michael Thames

He goes on the say he was shooting out doors and misjudged the exposure checked the auto iris and found he was 5 stops off, and praises the usefulness of that button.

He actually says the c100 screen is not that bright to judge exposure when shooting outside and if you are not sure or can't see the zebra's to just hit the auto exposure button so the camera will expose for you. The example shot he shows shooting right at the sun with a close up from the leaves is a good example when the auto iris will get it wrong, the camera will underexpose that shot until you will get a black silhouette from those leaves but maybe you don't want that, maybe you do want to expose those leaves more and let the sun blow out more in the background so again, the camera doesn't know what you want to expose right, it just looks at the overall exposure.

Also when he says he was shooting with nd6 at f4 and the camera says it has to be f13 it only tells me he doesn't know the basics for exposing a shot right.

[Michael Thames]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

He actually says the c100 screen is not that bright to judge exposure when shooting outside and if you are not sure or can't see the zebra's to just hit the auto exposure button so the camera will expose for you. The example shot he shows shooting right at the sun with a close up from the leaves is a good example when the auto iris will get it wrong, the camera will underexpose that shot until you will get a black silhouette from those leaves but maybe you don't want that, maybe you do want to expose those leaves more and let the sun blow out more in the background so again, the camera doesn't know what you want to expose right, it just looks at the overall exposure.

Also when he says he was shooting with nd6 at f4 and the camera says it has to be f13 it only tells me he doesn't know the basics for exposing a shot right.

Well, first off Noa he wasn't shooting "right at the sun" he was shooting at some high rise buildings with the sky in the back ground.

When you are outside running and gunning it, personally I rely on the auto iris button to get it right, like he said it's hard to see the LCD screen.... and yes, I know the difference between blowing out the highs or exposing for the subject, if I'm pointing the camera at the sky (not the sun) but even a cloudy sky I don't rely on the auto iris button..... I wing it!

Most of the guys who I talked to with 5D's about exposure recommend to use the exposure meter to get it in the ball bark..... at least that way you have a good reference point.

BTW, Janisch I'm sure knows how to expose correctly, your comment was uncalled for. He had his camera set to 6 stops of ND at f4, he was giving an example of how the camera can give you the correct settings for the correct exposure, by pressing a convenient button.

Since you don't have a C100 I can tell you that you really don't know what the exposure will be until you start flipping through the ND filters and f stops....... the auto iris button will tell you in a second where you need to be, you have incredible latitude, and it's a fast why to find your footing.

[Noa Put]

Well, first off Noa he wasn't shooting "right at the sun"

He was shooting right into the sun at that leaves shot when he was talking about the autoris button, I just gave that as an example.

Since you don't have a C100 I can tell you that you really don't know what the exposure will be until you start flipping through the ND filters and f stops....... the auto iris button will tell you in a second where you need to be, you have incredible latitude, and it's a fast why to find your footing.

You don't need to have a c100 to know how exposure works, I"m actually surprised canon added this button onto their cine camera line as this function is usually found back on small consumercams for a reason, they probably added it knowing also people that don't understand exposure would buy this camera so they at least have a quick way to get it right, approximately.

[Michael Thames]

On the 5D3 you have different exposure settings, like spot metering etc. so you can with the right settings rely pretty much on the exposure meter..... but, I never used it. However I have read that some people feel the exposure meter is slightly over exposed on the 5D3, so yea, you can fine tune it, and I use zebras and well the histogram to check it.

According the Shane Hurlbut you have about a stop and a half safety zone in underexposing on the C100, and if I remember correctly less than that for over exposure. So, I guess exposure is more of a matter of taste and interpretation than an exact science?

As I said before, I did have a disastrous experience when I first shot with the C100 and used the WFM only, maybe I need to go back and take another look at that. All this said and done, the real result is seen in post and that's all that matters, for me, so far so good, relying on the tools I've mentioned I use.

One burning question I do have is....... on WFM how do you deal with the spikes that go over 100% those obviously are over exposed highlights, is it a judgement call, or do you bring everything down below 100%?

[Noa Put]

One burning question I do have is....... on WFM how do you deal with the spikes that go over 100% those obviously are over exposed highlights, is it a judgement call, or do you bring everything down below 100%?

That depends on what you are exposing, those spikes could represent a blown out window in the back of an interior shot but if you are not interested to see what's outside that window you could leave that overexposed as long as what you are shooting inside is correctly exposed. But that's not important, the autoirisbutton will know what to do in such a case. :)

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Michael Thames

Noa, at exactly 10:05 in the video he goes into the settings at 6nd, and f4, then explains he pushed the auto iris button and it told him he was off....... Please don't mislead we can all see this in the video. You did this in order to suggest he doesn't know how to correctly expose..... it was a cheap shot.

If you need the auto iris to tell you your exposure is wrong you don't know how to set your exposure right, period.
edit: I"ll rephrase that because otherwise you think I"m referring to you again: If he needs the auto iris to tell him his exposure is wrong he doesn't know how to set the exposure right, period.

Originally Posted by Michael Thames

Of course you probably know more than the developers and engineers at Canon as to just how useless the auto iris button is, as well as the exposure meter, and of course anyone who touches that button is immediately labeled a rank amateur who knows nothing whatsoever about exposure including Janisch but, spent $5500.00 on a cinema camera.

I use the auto iris on my sony handicams, they have a use in certain situations and I know exactly when not to use it. It's my opinion that if you are serious about shooting a film, autoiris is a feature you should not be using.

[Noa Put]

I'm sorry to say that what the guy says in the video about the exposure starting at 09:40 just makes no sense, he basically says that because of the not so good lcd : "if you are out in the sunlight and you don't know if you are under- or over exposed and if you don't really see the zebra then it makes sense to use the push auto iris button, the exposure will be adjusted automatically and if you underexposed it will actually correct the exposure"

So here he actually says, no need to look at the lcd, the zebra's, the wfm, just point the camera to whatever you want to shoot and press the auto iris button and you will be ok.

With all due respect, if I hear this, I can't take the guy seriously.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Michael Thames

Since you don't have a C100 I can tell you that you really don't know what the exposure will be until you start flipping through the ND filters and f stops....... the auto iris button will tell you in a second where you need to be, you have incredible latitude, and it's a fast why to find your footing.

Wrong, the auto-iris button will give you a f-stop based on a average reading of what it sees in the entire frame, not on what you are actually trying to expose.

I don't want the camera telling me what f-stop I want to be using as that affects the dof, I decide at what f-stop I will be shooting and that doesn't change and then I set the appropriate iso and use variable nd-filter and with help of the zebra's and the histogram I determine when my exposure is right.

The autoiris button does have it's uses like I said before, which is why Canon might have included it, and that's in highly unpredictable and fast changing lightsituations while "running and gunning", then the auto-iris will help you to keep the exposure where it thinks it should be and faster then you can change it manually which might be the difference in getting or not getting a particular shot, but that only will work if the conditions are right, it just as easy can go the wrong way and the high dynamic range won't save your butt in such a case.

[Alex Payne]

Doesn't anybody use lightmeters anymore? A quick button press from the incident meter hanging around my neck is all I need.

[Noa Put]

I very rarely see photogs use that at a wedding but it's not something that is commonly used for video eventhough it gives the most accurate reading, I guess if you have the time to set up your shots there no reason not to use it.

[Alan McCormick]

Michael, Life is not always Black and White, you also get some Grey in between - It is the same for "Exposure".

Have a nice day

[Pavel Sedlak]

Originally Posted by Alan McCormick

Looks like Pavel's comparison test has gone off topic, I have been following this thread and from the sidelines I "think" I can see what Pavel is trying to say and as English I assume is not his first language it is not coming across as it is meant to be.

1. This is a "Comparison" between Mk 1 & Mk 2 C100
2. So, Pavel has set up both cameras with the "same settings" to see the Difference between the two cameras. Seems like a good idea to give a "comparison" of the cameras.

The WFM comments are all valid in their own right and I use them all the time but!!!! This thread is a comparison only so unfortunately it has missed the point.

Note to Pavel, Thank you for your test and feedback.

Alan, thanks. I was a little out in this "cross" debate (yes, english is not my native language).

I don't exactly understand to "WFM criticism" of Michael Thames, you described exactly the main idea of my test - it helps me that somebody understand to my "english language" .-) .

I think that Michael has some other problem and he is not interested in C100 M2.vs M1 test, but this is not my thing.

C100 mark II is nice camera and I will also wait for other tests to see subtle differences, but I can live with my C100 (mark I), I will not upgrade.

[Michael Thames]

In defense of Janisch, he was giving a camera review and explaining the different functions of the camera. He wasn't giving a lecture on how to use the WFM, or how to expose properly, etc. He is a film maker and I suspect he knows this stuff. You shouldn't take his comments out of context and trash him publicly.

The C100 is a good walk around camera, and the auto iris button does help a lot in those cases..... I think he was giving an example to people. From my experience the auto iris button does a pretty good job getting the exposure in the ball park when you are running around shooting.

I've only shot inside and seem to get the exposure right most of the time using my archaic methods. However, understanding more about the WFM will help fine tune this in the future.

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Originally Posted by Michael Thames

Thanks for that video Sabyasachi, I watched those Canon videos for a month before I got the C100. However it still doesn't make sense for me.

Last time I used the WFM was two months ago when I first got the camera, and had a confusing experience with it and screwed up a two hour long video, and never trusted it again. Since then I've simply trusted the exposure meter and auto iris button. I posted my problem here a while ago, but got no interest in a response.

Perhaps I'm using it incorrectly? I get the highs below 100% and the blacks above zero...... is this correct? Or do I try and just get the grey's at 60% and not worry about peaking?

Or perhaps I totally confusing the WFM in the camera, with a luma color correction WFM in FCPX? Or do they work the same.

Should I be concerned with a few highlight spikes going over 100% or is that only a concern for broadcast safe levels?

Also, the obvious question is if the exposure meter, and the auto iris are in complete agreement, what would be the difference in using those as a reference as opposed to the WFM?

I would greatly appreciate any help with this!

Sorry have been typing virtually non stop for the last couple of days and my fingers are aching, so can't write a note on exposure theories now.

I suspect the video that I had linked earlier didn't make sense to you as perhaps you are not aware of the theories.

People take paid workshops to understand the theories. If you demand or appear to be arguing, then no one will explain it here to you.

Noa Put's point about camera meter when pointed to the sky is right.

The other C100 video review by that gentleman called Janish: sorry he doesn't appear to understand exposure theories.

Do a search about 18% gray card. Find out what it is and why they created 18% gray and not 20%.

If it doesn't work, then you can catch hold of a still photographer who has been shooting since the days of film and understand how to expose manually.

22 yrs ago someone had commented that I didn't knew how to expose. I had felt bad but knew that it was true and did whatever was required to learn.

[Alex Payne]

What is it you're trying to learn about wfm?

Personally I'd never use the auto iris button, I don't believe it would get me any closer than just eye balling it from the lcd (yes even in direct sunlight) but these are all tools we have at our disposal, and if someone can use the auto iris to their benefit and make good images the client is happy with, go for it.

Like I said my first go to option for exposure is to just hang an incident meter around my neck. In circumstances where that won't be beneficial, like if I'm doing event coverage and rapidly switching between lighting scenarios, I'll pop on zebra stripestripes at 85% and maybe 95% so I know where my highlights are (I've also done some tests to know where I want certain highlights to be 85%, so if I'm not seeing enough I can bump it up, if im seeing too much or I'm getting into dangerous 95% territory I can bump it down) and will often throw a wfm up as well, though truthfully in that situation I'm less worried about using the wfm to nail the skin tones and more concerned with making sure everything I'm shooting is being captured (not too much blowing past 100 ire or crushing down at 0). The c100 has great dynamic range so I can typically save anything if I really need to so long as it's all been recorded.

That's what works for me anyway. In more controlled settings I'll just meter everything, but if things are so run and gun those are what gets me to "close enough," quickly and easily without the danger of the autoiris tracking on the wrong thing and just wrecking whatever I'm trying to shoot. That's maybe not a likely scenario, but it really sucks if it happens.