Someone with a 1DC..?

[Peer Landa]

Any Canon 1DC owners on this forum shooting 4K..? If so, I'd like to ask a couple of questions.

-- peer

[Chris Hurd]

Go ahead and post the questions... that ought to bring 'em out of the woodwork.

[Pierre Aguillard]

Yeah, I am shooting with the 1DC, feel free to ask me anything and I will answer if it's within my realm of understanding!

[Peer Landa]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Go ahead and post the questions... that ought to bring 'em out of the woodwork.

Okay -- so besides the mundane "how do you like it?" -- I'd also like to know how it holds up in bright daylight (being only 8-bit) and if there are any heat issues during long continuous shoots (since it pulls more than 500 Mbps in 4K). It would also be interesting to hear from someone who has shot with both the 1DC and the Scarlet.

-- peer

[Pierre Aguillard]

I like it a lot.

There are some limitations, but I've never used a camera without some kind of limitations and the 1DC's limitations I can work with very easily.

No heat issues at all - but I'm using two of the Lexar 128GB 1000x UDMA cards that can go up to 160.

We made a 70 minute feature during April and May and we shot the entire movie using one of the profiles Canon Portrait and also with the new Canon 24mm Cine Prime Lens. Our next movie is going to be shot in Canon Log, but we weren't sufficiently used to the device for that yet, so sort of did everything 'in camera' this time. It was a good way to get to know the camera, gave us a great 'look' for the project and some of the results are astonishing. We also stuck at 400 ISO almost the whole time because it's the native ISO for the camera and again we were just getting to know the device and keep a consistent look throughout the film. Bright sunlight did worry me a few times, so it's interesting you ask about it - I would have liked an ND filter and may get one of those. As you may know, the 1DC has no built in ND filters, like the C300. It does have exposure compensation though.

My first feature (a long time ago) was shot on Super 16mm, so I am used to having to work sensitively with a camera - and sort of get to know its personality so you can work around that. The 1DC is a beast that can do almost anything but in many ways, I approached it like film. We shot at 24 and the image is similar to film in some ways that I never found many HD images similar. I think you have to kind of watch out for the compression. There were moments when I didn't like the way something looked, so avoided it, rather than trying to make it work. To be honest, it usually happened when there was artificial lighting in somewhere like a shop. So I just avoided all of that. There was one scene where the artificial lighting looked beautiful, but that was a once off. Natural light seemed to bring out the cameras best qualities, and obviously being careful not to overexpose. But in terms of the compression, I found that if you shot in the good light and didn't whip pan, it doesn't ever become noticeable. That's not difficult for me to process, considering I started shooting on film. Once we were careful in that way, the rushes were gorgeous.

One of the great things about the 1DC is that it doesn't have the chassis of the C100/300/500 but a still camera chassis. It meant we didn't raise people's attention. They thought 'stills photograogher' not 'movie crew' and that allowed us to do things that would have been a lot harder. This is a very important aspect of the 1DC. I think you'll see some indy movies emerging over the next year shot on the 1DC which have a real verisimilitude for this reason. Some sequences look like 35mm but seem very 'light'.

[Peer Landa]

Thank you Pierre for that very comprehensive writeup. Have you (or anyone) shot with both the RED Scarlet and the 1DC -- if so, how do these cameras compare, vis-à-vis in 4K, when it comes to blown highlights and noisy lowlight?

-- peer

[Andree Markefors]

I have not shot with a Scarlet, but from what I've seen I think that you have a little bit more headroom, in theory, in the highlights when shooting Redcode raw. That said, Canon Log provides sufficient rolloff and a beautiful filmic look that should cover most situations.

On the lowlight end, the 1Dc would be running circles around a Scarlet. This ability and the 1Dc form factor makes it a superb 'available light' camera for many situations.

What is your thinking when you say that 8 bit would be a problem in bright daylight?

I would not simply state that ISO400 is the native ISO on the 1Dc. There is no documentation or white paper that supports that, as far as I know. The reason Canon Log demands ISO400 is most likely due to some version of highlight tone protection that is being applied when Canon Log is used. To get the 12 stops of DR in Canon Log you need to be at ISO400 or higher, but that is another issue.

The film look is achieved with Canon Log. There are many other useful picture profiles, but then your back to the normal rec 709 gamma curve and look, which is a totally different aesthetic.

One of my main gripes with the camera right now is that we have a exceptionally beautiful "lit" profile (or decent amount of available light) in Canon Log, but there is nothing to pick up the slack and maintain this look when light levels drop.

The mjpeg codec is, and should be, solid at over 500 Mb/s.

While this camera comes with a hefty price tag, my 1Dc has been "cheaper" than my 5Dmk3 was, since the 1Dc paid for itself and more.

It's really a unique camera and it's too bad that it didn't come in at $8999 or whatever so more people could get their hands on one. Of course... that's good news for those of us who use it commercially =)

[Nick Wilcox-Brown]

I have been using a 1Dc since May and have received many compliments on the look of the clips. Colour is extremely good too. I only shoot 4k.

Are you aware that the camera has just been awarded one of the ultimate accolades - BBC Approval for 4k?

Unusually, I do not shoot Log with mine, preferring to use the Prolost settings which work well and require less post.

Highlights? 1Dc is OK, but beware of your exposure - clipping is harsh when it happens. Canon's log settings actually reduce exposure by 1 stop to protect the highlights - I would rather do it myself and have full control.

Delkin 100M MB/s cards have worked well for me and much more affordable than Lexar / Sandisk


Sadly, I now have to sell the camera as I need to use long HJ zoom lenses for wildlife work - low hours / good price if anyone is looking in UK...

[Andree Markefors]

Originally Posted by Nick Wilcox-Brown

Unusually, I do not shoot Log with mine, preferring to use the Prolost settings which work well and require less post.

Highlights? 1Dc is OK, but beware of your exposure - clipping is harsh when it happens. Canon's log settings actually reduce exposure by 1 stop to protect the highlights - I would rather do it myself and have full control..

You can not replicate the result of Canon Log by under exposing any of the Canon picture profiles and then "lifting the shadows" in post. The way light is mapped differs a lot between Canon Log and Neutral (0, -4, -2, 0), for instance.

It's not a simple under expose, but rather HTP at work. While raw shooters better turn HTP off, it makes sense for a mjpeg codec.

That said, I also typically use Neutral in unlit indoor corporate environments. It helps get the skin tones up to the right level.

I do however feel that Canon Log on the 1Dc is one of the main things that can set its footage apart from all other DSLRs.

[Nick Wilcox-Brown]

Originally Posted by Andree Markefors

You can not replicate the result of Canon Log by under exposing any of the Canon picture profiles and then "lifting the shadows" in post. The way light is mapped differs a lot between Canon Log and Neutral (0, -4, -2, 0), for instance.

It's not a simple under expose, but rather HTP at work. While raw shooters better turn HTP off, it makes sense for a mjpeg codec.

That said, I also typically use Neutral in unlit indoor corporate environments. It helps get the skin tones up to the right level.

I do however feel that Canon Log on the 1Dc is one of the main things that can set its footage apart from all other DSLRs.

I fully appreciate that Log cannot be replicated, how ever I place little value on 8-bit log, it makes no sense. RAW is a very different story and IMO, it is nigh on criminal that RAW recording is not possible on the 'c'.

The camera is extremely capable, capturing to standard or modified picture styles, and well beyond any other DSLR, even the C300, for the quality of the clips it produces.

RAW, a decent codec and usable 50/60p would add tremendous value to an already good product.

[Andree Markefors]

Originally Posted by Nick Wilcox-Brown

I fully appreciate that Log cannot be replicated, how ever I place little value on 8-bit log, it makes no sense.

Each to their own.

Regarding the replicate part: I read your paragraph when you said "you'd rather underexpose yourself and keep full control", as if you claimed it to be a way to achieve Log results. I just wanted to let other readers with no hands on experience know that it won't work that way. Anyway...

I quite enjoy the 12 stops of DR that Canon Log provides, if the shooting conditions are suitable. I have had nothing but stellar results, despite only 8 bits. The 500+ Mbit/s 4:2:2 probably helps.

Canon were careful when creating Canon Log and made sure that tonality is maintained all over the luminance range. I have no banding or other artifacts and there are no disturbing tonal flat spots that I see in for instance CineStyle. Then again, Technicolor weren't dealt the same cards for playing with picture profiles as Canon.

Happy shooting,
A

[Nick Wilcox-Brown]

Originally Posted by Andree Markefors

I quite enjoy the 12 stops of DR that Canon Log provides, if the shooting conditions are suitable. I have had nothing but stellar results, despite only 8 bits. The 500+ Mbit/s 4:2:2 probably helps.

A

So how are you grading your log material? Straight grade in X or log decode & grade?

N

[Andree Markefors]

Originally Posted by Nick Wilcox-Brown

So how are you grading your log material? Straight grade in X or log decode & grade?

N

Very straight forward, I'd say. I start by exposing somewhat carefully so that I don't under expose skin, if present, but also so that I don't put anything critical in the rolloff area that starts sooner than with other profiles.

After that I treat the resulting files like anything else. I use FCPX for editing, so in 90% of the time I work with the color board there. But no LUTs or stuff like that.

I feel that FCPX has strong CC tools. You can add many layers of corrections, isolating areas in keyframeable masks if you want to.

Sometimes I miss a basic curve tool there, but I have DaVinci Resolve Lite, if I want to do something special. DaVinci has Log controls that overlap much less than normal Lift, Gamma, Gain controls and they are usable for resetting the black point in the Canon Log files.

But like I say: most of the time just normal color board work in FCPX.

[Nick Wilcox-Brown]

Thanks. Interesting. I'm using Premiere CC with Colorista II and occasionally FCPX. I agree with you, the colour board is excellent in X.

I did a lot of testing when I got the 1Dc and compared highlight handling with and without Log, hence my decision to go with ProLost

I have been doing a lot of low light work recently so log equates to lost light. However I have just embarked on a big commercial project, so I will take another look and some more testing.

:)

Nick

[Andree Markefors]

Originally Posted by Nick Wilcox-Brown

I have been doing a lot of low light work recently so log equates to lost light. However I have just embarked on a big commercial project, so I will take another look and some more testing.

I understand. The 1Dc excels in natural light, but if you do mostly low light scenarios, then like you say, the Log curve steals from you.

You can still use it, but it should probably be a very conscious decision and carefully handled.

And I mean... some projects lend themselves better to a steeper curve, and we have the other picture profiles for that.