C100: Impressive Audio!

[Mike Quinones]

I'm wondering
Is there anybody out there that can compare the XF300 with the C100?
Wonder how this two compare in quality.

[Philip Lipetz]

Originally Posted by Evan Bourcier

On a semi-unrelated note, I got to play with the c100 and c300 last week, and my biggest qualm on the 100 is that the EVF sucks... I found it hard to compose with, nevermind judge focus. Seems a SmallHD or similar would be required on it.

Turn your head sideways, rest the camera against your face, and then the EVF is not so bad, try using it as an ENG EVF and it is horrible.

[Darren Levine]

just rendered out a little review video, the first thing i've actually done with the c100, and since this thread was on my mind i opted to try the onboard mic instead of my usual lav. so here's how it sounds in a fairly quiet room at about 2-2.5' away from the subject(me)

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[Evan Bourcier]

Sounds relatively good! What's up with the compression stuff going on in the background on the left?

[Darren Levine]

well, grading avchd, compressing to 264, going through vimeo's compression, etc...

the original file doesn't look nearly that blockly, though there is some compression artifcating. don't know when i'll get a hold of a ninja but review videos like this i don't see the need to use anything more than the internal codec

[Darren Levine]

here's another review i just finished, this time using my regular wireless lav. plugged into the xlr as mic level.

really damn clean, nice quality through there. this audio is boosted in post by 9db(i haven't bothered to figure out how to view mic levels on the camera yet...)

anyone used to dslr audio will definitely be pleased by this camera's preamps.

hope this doesn't seem like i'm plugging my videos... i don't shoot tests, i test by shooting things that need shooting.

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[Andy Wilkinson]

After checking something again in the manual I have edited this post to remove information that might confuse people!

[Matt Davis]

Originally Posted by Darren Levine

...but review videos like this i don't see the need to use anything more than the internal codec

True - but even Atomos will state that the benefits of an external recorder are more about the ROBUSTNESS of the codec, and the benefits of an instantly editable one, rather than obvious improvements in picture quality.

For most corporate stuff, where there's only three generations, internal codec will be absolutely fine - NLEs including FCS and FCPX will automatically move any rushes that are 'treated' in any way to a 10 bit edit friendly codec.

It's only when your material is destined for broadcast, with its multiple copies and extra generations (can be 10, 11 generations away from rushes to final viewer), when the extra data in 4:2:2 comes into play. Or when your image will be writ large upon a projected screen and you happen to be in the front row.

Here's some tests I did with my FS100, which I've since recreated with the C100 with very similar results:

4:2:2 vs 4:2:0

I was shooting chromakey tests yesterday, and I had more issues with the FCPX keyer than I had with the difference between 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 (it's a hybrid keyer), Over in AE with keylight, much better key, from both sources.

As I'm doing keyed interviews next week, the recorder will come along mainly for audio quality (it's a Pix by Sound Devices after all), backup on internal codec (yet to test/trust the dual record of the C100) and best of all, the 'marker' function (both Ninja and Pix do this). Add 'essence' markers to video in real time to identify 'the good bits'.

Oh, and another thing, external recorder's rushes better if you're doing smoke, dust, high action and sport, but only if using ProRes HQ over ordinary ProRes, where the difference was moot.

[Philip Lipetz]

I am running audio tests. I report on preliminary findings. I ran a Sennheiser MKH40 directly into the C100 and in a second test into a Sound Devices Mixpre D with line out into the C100 XLR. The difference was dramatic, The background noise, rumble, whatever you what to call it, disappeared with the Mixpre D. It was not even a subtle difference. Now have to see if a dual sound system is even better, but the sound with the MixPre line out into the C100 set to line in with a level near 10 was very good. So good that I would have accepted it with a dual sound system, but we will have to see how it finally compares. The best is always around the next corner.

One important caution. I am writing this from the field. Listening only through headphones attached to the C100. I need to transfer it to a more critical environment before making a final judgment.

[Darren Levine]

Phillip, that seems odd. or perhaps you're using far higher end playback than i. i assume you were running the mkh40 into xlr?

i did another video, this time using the same wireless lav, but plugged into the 3.5mm port instead of XLR. didn't change any settings, and the different in tonal quality is vastly different. i'll have to go in and see what settings there might be to cause this, or different preamps for the xlr vs 3.5mm

so as a recap, my first video post was internal mic, second was sennheiser wireless lav to XLR mic level, and this is the same mic, to 3.5mm port

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[Philip Lipetz]

I have and use Sennheiser wireless lavs but they really cut the sound quality, and mask any problems further down the sound chain. The Sennheiser MKH40 is acknowledged as one of the absolute best cardiod mics. Most video people do not realize the value of good sound for audience acceptance, and suspension of disbelief. I was talking to a juror at Sundance and was told that Sundance rejects the majority of films simPly becuase of poor sound quality. Unless they are high end, and I can't afford the best, wireless systems simply introduce noise and distortion. You can minimize the damage by using after market lacs, like Sanken Co11 (the best), Countryman B3/6, and Tram. When I am doing critical work I use XLR wired COS11 lavs. The difference is huge. So, for the work I do I must do test with equipment that gives the best sound,and only then can I judge each element in the recording chain.

[Richard Gooderick]

It was quite some time after I first started filming that I realised you don't need to use wireless radio mics for static interviews.
You can run an XLR cable from the mic into the camera. Which is a better solution.
I just mention this in case anyone else has overlooked the obvious. Because it often is not apparent when reading forums.

[Darren Levine]

Depends on which mic you have available.

Also, i shy away from ever having anyone other than myself hardwired to the camera. takes all of 2 seconds for me to look away and for them to want to stand up for a glass of water or something for the camera to take a tumble.

[Matt Davis]

Just to play Devil's Advocate for fun, a wireless setup can also help if you're micing up in an environment with lots of mobile phones in use - running via XLR is undoubtedly the best way quality wise, but it can pick up the 'der-dit-dit' of a cell phone trying to find a tower. A wireless lav doesn't get this (but can get 'splats' from competing systems and other energy sources).

A long while ago,I bought the Sennheiser G2 kit with transmitter, receiver and 'butt-plug' (not my choice of name but everyone seems to call them that - a dongle that's a phantom powering XLR on one end, TX on the other) - thus allowing the use of a COS-11 lav, CS-1 shotgun or even just a sound feed from a desk to go straight into the camera with no fear of phone interference (let alone Health and Safety and convenience).

It's nice to have the option to run wireless if you need to, but stick to wired when you can.

Really must do the Mic Pre demo again with the C100.

[Philip Lipetz]

Of course I meant XLR WIRED lavs in my post as giving the best quality. Sorry for the typo, and my dyslexia? Corrected post to read properly.