Canon EOS C100

Philip Lipetz · November 23rd, 2012, 12:18 PM

Playing with our team's first C100, thanks to Debora for letting me pry it from her hands. First impression - the EVF is NOT the same as on the preproduction models. Actually much better, even usuable, Still not as good as a C300 but something that I can live with. Could be wrong but seems to be better than XF105. Repeat, I will be able to use this. I hope for aftermarket eyecup replacement to seal the EVF better, but that is small, Can read display info, focus still a little hard without peaking but there is peaking. Image magnification works only on LCD. Focusing still more difficult than it should be on EVF, but doable with peaking mag turned up. Again, this EVF seems better than the preproduction prototypes.

Nigel Barker · November 23rd, 2012, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson

The C100 has arrived in the UK. CVP website says they now have 21 in stock (and one of them is MINE!!!!). 2-3 days delivery so should have it early next week.

Pity I'm mega busy with clients - I doubt I'll have much time to play with the camera the next few weeks.

CVP still have 11 in stock (very tempting but I really don't need a new camera right now:-)

Andy, if you do have some time before Xmas I would love to bring my C300 along & do some comparisons. I'll drop you an email.

Dan Burnap · November 23rd, 2012, 12:51 PM

Preston UK have a price about 500 pounds cheaper than CVP last time I looked but they dont have any in stock yet.

Andy Wilkinson · November 23rd, 2012, 02:44 PM

Yes Nigel let's try and do that soon. CVP deliver my C100 on Tuesday.

From what I have seen so far on the various web clips out there it looks like an excellent purchase - but I will reserve judgement until I have had some quality time with the cam. As we all knew, serious work will need an external recorder and I am OK with that.

Comparing it to the C300 will be an excellent benchmark. Lets meet in a good pub in Norwich (there are many) and go from there!

David Heath · November 23rd, 2012, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Haustein

Surprised by the amount of aliasing in the eyebrows on the AVCHD vs. ProRes clip. Does bit rate affect aliasing that much, or is this another one of those Premiere Pro field order issues?

I'm not convinced it is aliasing, and am also surprised in the difference between the AVCHD and ProRes clips. I'd expect ProRes to be a bit better - but not to give that difference.

The eyebrow difference looks more to me like a scaling issue when it's scaled up to 400%. It looks as if the AVCHD example is doing it in a much coarser fashion than ProRes, hence the stairstepping. One way to check that would be to take frame grabs from the timeline and import into Photoshop. Then upscale to 400% with image size, and make sure the same upscaling method (eg Bicubic smoother) is selected for each.

Murray Christian · November 23rd, 2012, 05:28 PM

Canon are on a winner with this one by the looks. The body price gets lower every time I look. I am still wondering what damage it'll do to the FS700 price though (hey, I'd get both if I had that sort of scratch).

Philip Lipetz · November 23rd, 2012, 06:47 PM

In a previous post I repeated the information given at the Canon seminar that there was no EV compensation, nearly caused me to cancel. Well, there is EV compensation buried in the menu, not as a button. N this will allow shooting without the grip that has very nice iris control. Without the grip it is a very light package that does not fpdraw attention, so will be able to run and gun where video is ordinarily frowned upon.

I think Canon got smart and made some small changes, to at least the EVF and EV, and who know what else, I will look. These changes remove some of the deliberate crippling seen in the prototype. This could be much nicer camera than it first seemed.

Will continue with ergonomic observations since ease of use is what was lacking in the Sony FS series, and this will set the C100 apart. I wanted a camera I could run and gun with, without setup, or stop and go shooting.

Paul Joy · November 24th, 2012, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson

Comparing it to the C300 will be an excellent benchmark. Lets meet in a good pub in Norwich (there are many) and go from there!

C cameras and a pub! sounds like heaven! Count me in if there's room for one more, should have my C100 on Tuesday as well so looking forward to seeing how nicely it integrates with the C300.

I don't think the C100 would excite me at all as a main camera given it's been so heavily knobled by Canon but as a B cam it could very well be perfect for me if the images match up. After using a 5D with a DP4 monitor and videomic attached for two cam audio syncing the C100 should be very nice to use with it's built in mics and rear mounted LCD. I'm loving the move back to less bolt on bits and pieces.

Paul

Andy Wilkinson · November 24th, 2012, 06:23 AM

Paul, it would be great to meet you as well as Nigel! I've admired your work ever since I discovered it when we both had films screened at The Forum in Norwich back in 2010 - with that BBC Norfolk Film Festival thing.

I'm thinking maybe Mon 3rd or Tues 4th Dec might (currently...) work for me as I'm filming for a client in Bury St Edmunds most of the back end of next week, for another in Cambridge back end of w/c 3rd and in Manchester and York most of w/c 10th. Everyone wants their films by Xmas!

Let's sort out details and dates by e-mail off-forum.

David Ells · November 24th, 2012, 01:12 PM

Turns out Adam, the skintones test user with the aliasing eyebrows actually did have his fields displayed incorrectly after all. He is replacing the current file he has uploaded.

He also provided me with the original .MTS and ProRes files so I raised the exposure by about 2 stops in Premiere using RGB Curves to see how both files did:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6707929/skintones_2_stops.mp4

I was pretty impressed with how well AVCHD held up but it's clear that ProRes provides more flexibility with recovering from underexposure.

Paul Joy · November 24th, 2012, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson

Paul, it would be great to meet you as well as Nigel! I've admired your work ever since I discovered it when we both had films screened at The Forum in Norwich back in 2010 - with that BBC Norfolk Film Festival thing.

Be good to meet you too, looking forward to it.

Philip Lipetz · November 24th, 2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Ells

Turns out Adam, the skintones test user with the aliasing eyebrows actually did have his fields displayed incorrectly after all. He is replacing the current file he has uploaded.

He also provided me with the original .MTS and ProRes files so I raised the exposure by about 2 stops in Premiere using RGB Curves to see how both files did:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6707929/skintones_2_stops.mp4

I was pretty impressed with how well AVCHD held up but it's clear that ProRes provides more flexibility with recovering from underexposure.

AVCHD portion with proper NLE settings

Philip Lipetz · November 25th, 2012, 05:26 AM

One of you guys who have your C100 in hand please help. Switching the EVF to B&W makes it easy to focus, but then it unexpectedly also switches the recording to B&W. The manual does not say that this should happen, but it does. Is this behavior a software bug on all cameras or a fault in mine? Please try it.

Andy Wilkinson · November 25th, 2012, 05:35 AM

Hi Philip - don't have the cam until Tuesday but that sounds like a software bug. I'm sure others who have can confirm for you soon.

I have a question for you. Are you really sure the EVF has been upgraded since the (4?) pre-production C100s did the rounds? We know from the specs that it is a higher resolution EVF than the (relatively poor) one on the XF100/105. I truly hope it has seen a major upgrade (maybe they used an XF100/105 EVF as a temp measure on the pre-prod C100s while tooling for the new one?). Real pity their marketing people did n't just let the design engineers use the already available and swivelling one on the C300s!

Seems lots of new C100 owners are having workflow problems with the NLEs not treating the the AVCHD footage as progressive - I guess that'll die down once the word gets around of how to deal with it - I've already posted a Provideo Coalition link about the workflow for Prem Pro a while back (Post No 215).

So far I've been pretty impressed by the "good stuff" that I've seen and downloaded - but I'll know for sure in a few days time. Roll on Tuesday!

Philip Lipetz · November 25th, 2012, 06:03 AM

The EVF driver software could also be different. My eyes require diopter correction so iti is possible that that was the part that got better. But something has changed. Not C300 level, but usable.

I find myself shooting primarily without a rig, holding the camera in two hands with my elbows against my body and using the EVF, not the LCD, to create three point stability. Will need to be inconspicuous when we do some doc work in a place that has potential dangers, no rig, external recorder or top handle. I am confident that the EVF will work fine for that, especially if I can use it in B&W mode without that forcing B&W recording, There is no way I could have done that with the prototype.

The key is to tilt your head sideways so your eye is closer to the EVF, not the semi straight on position you would use with the C300. When you use this eye position the increased EVF resolution gives an acceptably lage image. I don't recall being able to do this with the prototype, better eye cup? Again do not use the head position you would use with other cameras. If you do not tilt your head the EVF is horriblly small.

Who knows perhaps this trick is the difference, and I just did not discover it with the prototype. However the BT on the French demo film showed external EVFs gaff taped to the prototypes, so there is a chance something has changed other than my expectation that I should look straight into the EVF as with other cameras.

Look at the design of the C100 eyecup. It is shallow for tilted use since the shallowness makes your nose get in the way if you look straight on into the EVF. The C300 EVF extends toward you.

Well, all change comes from within so perhaps it was me - and every other person who played with the prototypes.

November 23rd, 2012, 12:18 PM	#286
Philip Lipetz Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 273	Re: Canon EOS C100 Playing with our team's first C100, thanks to Debora for letting me pry it from her hands. First impression - the EVF is NOT the same as on the preproduction models. Actually much better, even usuable, Still not as good as a C300 but something that I can live with. Could be wrong but seems to be better than XF105. Repeat, I will be able to use this. I hope for aftermarket eyecup replacement to seal the EVF better, but that is small, Can read display info, focus still a little hard without peaking but there is peaking. Image magnification works only on LCD. Focusing still more difficult than it should be on EVF, but doable with peaking mag turned up. Again, this EVF seems better than the preproduction prototypes.

November 23rd, 2012, 12:51 PM	#288
Dan Burnap Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Rio de Janeiro Posts: 335	Re: Canon EOS C100 Preston UK have a price about 500 pounds cheaper than CVP last time I looked but they dont have any in stock yet.

November 23rd, 2012, 02:44 PM	#289
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Canon EOS C100 Yes Nigel let's try and do that soon. CVP deliver my C100 on Tuesday. From what I have seen so far on the various web clips out there it looks like an excellent purchase - but I will reserve judgement until I have had some quality time with the cam. As we all knew, serious work will need an external recorder and I am OK with that. Comparing it to the C300 will be an excellent benchmark. Lets meet in a good pub in Norwich (there are many) and go from there! __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

November 23rd, 2012, 05:28 PM	#291
Murray Christian Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Perth, Australia Posts: 240	Re: Canon EOS C100 Canon are on a winner with this one by the looks. The body price gets lower every time I look. I am still wondering what damage it'll do to the FS700 price though (hey, I'd get both if I had that sort of scratch).

November 23rd, 2012, 06:47 PM	#292
Philip Lipetz Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 273	Re: Canon EOS C100 In a previous post I repeated the information given at the Canon seminar that there was no EV compensation, nearly caused me to cancel. Well, there is EV compensation buried in the menu, not as a button. N this will allow shooting without the grip that has very nice iris control. Without the grip it is a very light package that does not fpdraw attention, so will be able to run and gun where video is ordinarily frowned upon. I think Canon got smart and made some small changes, to at least the EVF and EV, and who know what else, I will look. These changes remove some of the deliberate crippling seen in the prototype. This could be much nicer camera than it first seemed. Will continue with ergonomic observations since ease of use is what was lacking in the Sony FS series, and this will set the C100 apart. I wanted a camera I could run and gun with, without setup, or stop and go shooting. Last edited by Philip Lipetz; November 23rd, 2012 at 09:45 PM.

November 24th, 2012, 06:23 AM	#294
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Canon EOS C100 Paul, it would be great to meet you as well as Nigel! I've admired your work ever since I discovered it when we both had films screened at The Forum in Norwich back in 2010 - with that BBC Norfolk Film Festival thing. I'm thinking maybe Mon 3rd or Tues 4th Dec might (currently...) work for me as I'm filming for a client in Bury St Edmunds most of the back end of next week, for another in Cambridge back end of w/c 3rd and in Manchester and York most of w/c 10th. Everyone wants their films by Xmas! Let's sort out details and dates by e-mail off-forum. __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

November 24th, 2012, 01:12 PM	#295
David Ells Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Beverly, MA Posts: 87	Re: Canon EOS C100 Turns out Adam, the skintones test user with the aliasing eyebrows actually did have his fields displayed incorrectly after all. He is replacing the current file he has uploaded. He also provided me with the original .MTS and ProRes files so I raised the exposure by about 2 stops in Premiere using RGB Curves to see how both files did: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6707929/skintones_2_stops.mp4 I was pretty impressed with how well AVCHD held up but it's clear that ProRes provides more flexibility with recovering from underexposure. __________________ inthecarmedia.com

November 25th, 2012, 05:26 AM	#298
Philip Lipetz Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 273	Re: Canon EOS C100 One of you guys who have your C100 in hand please help. Switching the EVF to B&W makes it easy to focus, but then it unexpectedly also switches the recording to B&W. The manual does not say that this should happen, but it does. Is this behavior a software bug on all cameras or a fault in mine? Please try it.

November 25th, 2012, 05:35 AM	#299
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Canon EOS C100 Hi Philip - don't have the cam until Tuesday but that sounds like a software bug. I'm sure others who have can confirm for you soon. I have a question for you. Are you really sure the EVF has been upgraded since the (4?) pre-production C100s did the rounds? We know from the specs that it is a higher resolution EVF than the (relatively poor) one on the XF100/105. I truly hope it has seen a major upgrade (maybe they used an XF100/105 EVF as a temp measure on the pre-prod C100s while tooling for the new one?). Real pity their marketing people did n't just let the design engineers use the already available and swivelling one on the C300s! Seems lots of new C100 owners are having workflow problems with the NLEs not treating the the AVCHD footage as progressive - I guess that'll die down once the word gets around of how to deal with it - I've already posted a Provideo Coalition link about the workflow for Prem Pro a while back (Post No 215). So far I've been pretty impressed by the "good stuff" that I've seen and downloaded - but I'll know for sure in a few days time. Roll on Tuesday! __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

November 25th, 2012, 06:03 AM	#300
Philip Lipetz Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 273	Re: Canon EOS C100 The EVF driver software could also be different. My eyes require diopter correction so iti is possible that that was the part that got better. But something has changed. Not C300 level, but usable. I find myself shooting primarily without a rig, holding the camera in two hands with my elbows against my body and using the EVF, not the LCD, to create three point stability. Will need to be inconspicuous when we do some doc work in a place that has potential dangers, no rig, external recorder or top handle. I am confident that the EVF will work fine for that, especially if I can use it in B&W mode without that forcing B&W recording, There is no way I could have done that with the prototype. The key is to tilt your head sideways so your eye is closer to the EVF, not the semi straight on position you would use with the C300. When you use this eye position the increased EVF resolution gives an acceptably lage image. I don't recall being able to do this with the prototype, better eye cup? Again do not use the head position you would use with other cameras. If you do not tilt your head the EVF is horriblly small. Who knows perhaps this trick is the difference, and I just did not discover it with the prototype. However the BT on the French demo film showed external EVFs gaff taped to the prototypes, so there is a chance something has changed other than my expectation that I should look straight into the EVF as with other cameras. Look at the design of the C100 eyecup. It is shallow for tilted use since the shallowness makes your nose get in the way if you look straight on into the EVF. The C300 EVF extends toward you. Well, all change comes from within so perhaps it was me - and every other person who played with the prototypes. Last edited by Philip Lipetz; November 25th, 2012 at 07:00 AM.