C300, just a surgically enhanced XF305?

[Brian Drysdale]

It seems same going out price as a basic F3, but it has an on board broadcast acceptable codec, while the F3 doesn't (it's just the same as the EX1 & EX3).

The C300 would never be the same price as a XF305 anyway given it's competitors' pricing, but I'd imagine there's good chance the price will drop over the next year to 18 months.

The other non DSLR options available include the FS 100, for which you'll need a Nanoflash or other external recorder to match the C300, but it doesn't seem to have the same standard of image quality as the Canon. So, there seems to be better signal processing going on pre 8bit than on the FS 100.

I'm sure people below the high end will use the C300, it's quite within the budgets of many documentaries. However, if you've got a DSLR budget, it won't be the camera for you, although I'm sure Canon will produce DSLRs with better video specs than the current offerings.

[Kris Koster]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

However, if you've got a DSLR budget, it won't be the camera for you, although I'm sure Canon will produce DSLRs with better video specs than the current offerings.

That's a valid point for sure. I'd like to draw attention to two separate pieces of information that really stuck out for me recently.

On Philip Bloom's Canon C300 Review, he said within the first couple of minutes that the C300 isn't intended as a replacement for the Canon 5D Mark II and said there would be such a replacement for the 5D2.

Ok, so PB isn't a spokeperson for Canon. But who needs his opinion when a lot of information has already been given away by Canon's CEO and managing director, Masaya Maeda. In what I found to be a fascinating interview by Jon Fauer. I don't know if you missed it, but it's well worth a read.

On page 15, of Jon's magazine posted here, when asked if there was a DSLR roadmap for 4K, Masaya Maeda replies, "Outside of the cinema industry, there are many Canon EOS 5D Mark II users. Particularly there are many users in the commercial production area requiring or requesting even higher resolutions. As we have shown yesterday, the development of a new-concept DSLR with 4K is in the works."

Before I read that, I previously understood that they may go down that route. But for the CEO and managing director to recently say such a camera is actually in the works puts this into a whole new perspective.

A prototype model of the 4K DSLR was in the glass showcase window at the unveiling of the C300. I guess it was easy to miss that part of Canon's exhibit on the Paramount stage when all eyes were on the C300 announcement. It's intended to record video in motion JPEG 4K. And do you think they would stick any old sensor in there? We're going to expect the same or better than the C300's sensor will be used for sure.


Photo: Courtesy Jon Fauer - FD Times

Interestingly, in another part of that same revealing interview, Mr Maeda said the XF305 video team were the main design team for the C300... As if it weren't obvious enough!

I'd say the next 6 to 24 months are going to be very interesting.

[Jon Fairhurst]

As I understand it, Canon hopes to release the 4K DSLR before the end of the year. That's a long time to wait. In the meantime, Nikon will unveil the D4 soon and I expect that Canon's next gen DSLRs will come to light well before December.

Canon really hit a home run with the 5D2. It was released over three years ago and is still really attractive for both video and photos. I can't wait to see what's next...

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Kris Koster

A prototype model of the 4K DSLR was in the glass showcase window at the unveiling of the C300. I guess it was easy to miss that part of Canon's exhibit on the Paramount stage when all eyes were on the C300 announcement. It's intended to record video in motion JPEG 4K. And do you think they would stick any old sensor in there? We're going to expect the same or better than the C300's sensor will be used for sure.

I find a couple of things about this a little odd. A "DSLR" implies almost by definition a stills camera primarily intended for shooting high quality stills - and for this purpose most people will expect better than the 8 magapixel sensor of the C300. That sensor is great for 1080 video - but for stills.....?

So if not that, then what? I've speculated before about the possibility of a "universal" sensor, based on 4x1920 and 4x1080 (so about 32 megapixel) or 7680x4320. Obviously good enough for stills - and by doing exactly the same quartlet read out as in the C300, a direct read out of quad-HD 4k. Just a thought. Bear in mind that it's hard to make a camera which is both good for stills and for video.

[Paul Joy]

It does seem as though the C300 is based on and in many ways hindered by components from the XF305. I can understand why Canon would rely on their XF series development team as they would be mad not to tap in to their own teams experience but I keep seeing statements by the Canon guys that refer to the Sensor being more powerful than the supporting hardware & software.

Here's a few comments that have been posted on twitter today by Paul Antico who was as at Canon event listening / talking to larry Thorpe from Canon.

Larry: "to get to market quickly we had to use existing codec engine combined with brand new chip. This limited to 8 bit. Chip is higher at 444"

"c300 sensor can go to 60p. XF305 codec limited to 30p at 1080. Hence the limitation."

"Larry Thorpe told me there's zero chance to get 444 10 bit out of the #c300. The processing chip is the limit. However C future cams will."

It does make you wonder how quickly the C300 will be superseded by another version with processing hardware that's as capable as the sensor.

[Colin McAuliffe]

Originally Posted by Paul Joy

It does make you wonder how quickly the C300 will be superseded by another version with processing hardware that's as capable as the sensor.

And wouldn't it be great if they did? It won't be for a year at least. In that year I'm sure a working pro could get at least 20-30 $400-500 dollar rentals out of a c300 kit. You then sell the c300, still probably making a profit, and upgrade.

[Mark Dobson]

Originally Posted by Paul Joy

It does seem as though the C300 is based on and in many ways hindered by components from the XF305. I can understand why Canon would rely on their XF series development team as they would be mad not to tap in to their own teams experience but I keep seeing statements by the Canon guys that refer to the Sensor being more powerful than the supporting hardware & software.

.........

It does make you wonder how quickly the C300 will be superseded by another version with processing hardware that's as capable as the sensor.

From all that I have read I think Canon are genuinely excited by this new camera and the new top end production market that it is opening up. So I would imagine there will be a higher definition next generation EOS C300 pretty soon.

But I can't see Canon lowering the price of the C300 at that stage. Whilst there are slight regional variations Canon basically don't lower their prices.

I think basically that Canon have used the huge interest in DSLR filmmaking with the 5Dmk11 etc as a
calling card to introduce this new range of video cameras.The amazing films that have been produced with the Canon DSLRs have really boosted Canons reputation for producing high quality video. They have leapfrogged their position in the market place from producing prosumer camcorders to suddenly being a major player in the Broadcast digital video market.

The C300 is much more similar to the XF305 than to the 5D. But given a choice I think that most people who have been making films with the 5D or 7D etc would much prefer the new form factor. I'ts a self contained system whereas the DSLRs require 3rd party accessories to function effectively.

So I wonder where the prototype 4k DSLR will fit in.

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Colin McAuliffe

And wouldn't it be great if they did? It won't be for a year at least. In that year I'm sure a working pro could get at least 20-30 $400-500 dollar rentals out of a c300 kit. You then sell the c300, still probably making a profit, and upgrade.

If you need to upgrade that quickly really depends on the type of work you're shooting. For example, the old F900 cameras are still being used to shoot sit coms, including I gather "The Big Bang Theory".

I'm not sure DSLRs have made Canon "a major player in the Broadcast digital video market", they already were with their lenses. In broadcasting, DSLRs are a niche, the XF305 will be of more interest to the broadcasters. The DSLRs are more used by people shooting music videos and indie films etc than the people making broadcast programmes, their main use in this market being as insert or specialist cameras than the main production camera.

[Matt Ford]

305 is a great camera and comparing it to the C300 is missing the point by a country mile.

The C300 is a very cheap camera. If you think its expensive you dont need it, its not aimed at you.

I think Rodney Charters late night comments are on the nail...Wise man.

[Chris Medico]

Originally Posted by Colin McAuliffe

And wouldn't it be great if they did? It won't be for a year at least. In that year I'm sure a working pro could get at least 20-30 $400-500 dollar rentals out of a c300 kit. You then sell the c300, still probably making a profit, and upgrade.

You hit the nail right on the head with that one. Its exactly how the purchase of the F3 has worked out. Its a $400 day rental for body only. Load it up with LOG and external recorder and its over $600. AND it is a very busy asset. I'm happy that I have to schedule when I want to use it myself.

For those who choose to buy the C300 it will be a great investment.

For those who are complaining about the cost - you may not be in the cameras' target demographic.

[Matt Ford]

I would never rent my gear. Never!

[Chris Medico]

Originally Posted by Matt Ford

I would never rent my gear. Never!

A perfectly reasonable decision. No question about it.

Renting out gear is not for everyone. Lots of risk there. But thats s discussion for a different thread.

[Colin McAuliffe]

Originally Posted by Matt Ford

I would never rent my gear. Never!

But don't you charge for gear when you use it for clients? That's what I was talking about in my earlier post. If you aren't going to get quite a few billable days out of the camera in a year, than the c300 might not be for you.


I know back in the 2/3" camera days people used to try and pay off cameras in 3 years, but I'm of the thought that these days you need to pay off a rig considerably faster before it becomes a paperweight.

[Sanjin Svajger]

Originally Posted by Colin McAuliffe

I know back in the 2/3" camera days people used to try and pay off cameras in 3 years, but I'm of the thought that these days you need to pay off a rig considerably faster before it becomes a paperweight.

3 years...That is not a long period of time. So even today, 3 years should be O.K. if you ask me. I don't see a reason why an F3 or an HPX3100 shouldn't be a perfectly usable camera in 3 years. The tech is evolving rather fast yes, but 3 years really isn't THAT much time. Currently the market is streaming towards a "perfect" camera with a nice S35 chip, a good internal 10bit codec, a reliable, cheap flash media, 1080 60p, a LOG function and a central shutter. The other "perfect" camera would have 2k or more rez and it would be used for narrative films targeted for the big screen - Scarlet is still to much of a hassle to work with and also expensive. Both of these cameras are for productions on a budget. When we get there I think that the market is going to cool down a bit. At least I hope so:) All this new technology is keeping me away from writing my scripts and from actually filming :)

The C300 is actually very close to this model and I think that the next iteration of the C series will be this model! It's up for other companies to catch up then. Currently Panasonic has some catching up to do.

[Matt Ford]

Originally Posted by Colin McAuliffe

But don't you charge for gear when you use it for clients? That's what I was talking about in my earlier post. If you aren't going to get quite a few billable days out of the camera in a year, than the c300 might not be for you.

Yes the gear is factored into all production budgets, always.
I am considering 2 C300s for projects in the next 2 years and with 305 and XF100s as B and backups for shooting in remote and harsh environments for long periods. What I can tell you is that compared to 2/3 days I can half the budget, increase backup/failsafe and reduce the gear to be shipped.. Broadcast documentary budgets have shrunk so I welcome these new breed of cameras (do you remember the price of broadcast cameras?) We are now lighter, faster and more reliable and so much more flexible.. I am one of the many this camera is targeted at and Im very happy!