Reasons to go for C300 over RED Scarlet X?

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by Charles Papert

... but the demo films at the unveiling invited more questions than answers, for me....

Hey Charles,

What I saw at the screenings was pretty impressive to me (other than some annoying fixed grain on the highest iso stuff on Sword and some overly crushed shadows on the rest of that film), but I certainly don't consider myself anywhere near your league in the expectations department. Can you elaborate on what you saw that concerned you?

Barry

[Charles Papert]

If the films had supers that indicated what ISO given scenes were shot at, I would have been able to evaluate the noise level with that frame of reference. I would have rather seen something along the lines of the 1DX demo in this regard. Also, saw some highlight handling that didn't impress me. But again, it's hard to know where the exposures fell for a given shot.

My expectations aren't necessarily higher than others--in fact I'm far less impressed or turned off by specs than many folks who perhaps don't have their work under the same level of scrutiny that I do. After all, I shot many projects over the past few years on the DSLR's and while I felt the limitations, it was also freeing in certain respects. Ironically, factors such as dynamic range are going to be potentially more valuable to those who don't have access to extensive lighting control (either high wattage instruments or sizable grip gear) as I generally do. Last week I had to shoot a group of African Americans standing on a street corner in the shade with the background frontlit in full sun (the one location I hadn't scouted and given my preferences of time of day to shoot to the AD's...sigh). Fortunately I had the ability to blast a couple of 12k pars through an 8x8 behind camera to build up enough level to contain the values in the scene--just enough for s-log incidentally, background would have clipped with picture profiles--and it still looked good. But without that gear, every half stop of dynamic range goes a long way.

Brian--I don't doubt that there will be a way to adapt the PL version of the C300 for EF, but considering the issues I've always had with the EF mount by itself (visible lens shifting), I'm not thrilled. But since I own both EF and PL lenses, it poses a dilemma. Advantage: Scarlet, on that matter. We'll see what the market bears on that one.

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by Charles Papert

My expectations aren't necessarily higher than others--

I was only referring to the fact that you're probably one of the few on this board who's worked with Alexa, Red et al, and thus are coming from a different frame of reference than I am. After hearing so much criticism from people who haven't seen the image on the big screen, it's useful I think to hear any points (positive and negative) from someone with your perspective.

Barry

[Thierry Humeau]

Originally Posted by Ramji Meena

Everybody is finding C300 perfect for episodic tv programmes and documentary work.I think the best camera for this segment is HPX3100 which is not costing much as compared to C300.I have seen the HPX3100 images projected on 35mm cinema screen.The results were better than RED ONE.

Ramji,

I trust your jugement on the HPX3100 but we are really discussing Super 35mm cameras here. Not so much for the quality of the image projected on big screens but rather the film look and shallow depth of field of large sensor cameras which the HPX3100 is not.

Take care,

Thierry.

[Jim Martin]

Originally Posted by Andy Garnett

I know a lot of people in Hollywood and as of Nov 20, 2011 I don't know anyone planning on buying a Canon C300.

Lets just say that I have been receiving lots of inquires from shows & people who work a lot here in town.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

[Ken Diewert]

I'd be interested to hear what others with experience with Red have to say about reliability.

In 5 days with the Epic, we had several issues that would make me nervous to buy one, or a Scarlet for that matter.

"Power spike Detected - initiating camera shutdown" at least 3 times when using the Red Brick for power

Monitor went split screen - either the Red Touchscreen or the External when punched in to magnify for focus. This happened at least twice a day. Required powering down and restart.

And one incident where the camera would not stop recording, though timecode stopped running. This required a hard reboot.

We also had a major back focus issue with the Red 18-85 lens, or the sensor. The cause is still being determined.

[Ken Diewert]

Just read this opinion on Scarlet from Phil Bloom

To buy a Scarlet or not to buy, that is the question… | Philip Bloom

[Tim Polster]

Wow. Sobering post from P. Bloom. Good to see such honesty in the internet space.

[Jim Martin]

Ditto....I have a renewed respect for Mr. Bloom.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

[Charles Papert]

That was indeed a good article. There are those who would like to think this particular horse race is cut-and-dry (or already won); I think time will tell. I for one have already been burned by RED cameras on a few occasions and I can't embrace a system that does that. I have long felt that it is great for owner/operator folks who can take the time to work around issues on smaller shoots, or for large budget productions that can afford a brace of bodies (one goes down, just substitute another), but for the inbetween, where there is one or two cameras on set and plenty of time pressure, the reliability and workflow can be dodgy. I have respect for aspects of the RED cameras but I can't embrace the associated lifestyle, if ya know what I mean.

Much as the specs of the Canon DSLR's did not "add up" to the resulting images they produced, I have a sense that the C300 will prove the same on a larger scale.

Mostly: it's simply amazing that such image quality is available within this level of price range.

Barry: I was only able to stay for a couple of the films at the screening at Paramount as I had limited time--I really would have liked to see a sampler compilation of all of them. Personally I think that would have served the purpose of showing the camera off far better than the choice to present "short films".

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by Charles Papert

Barry: I was only able to stay for a couple of the films at the screening at Paramount as I had limited time--I really would have liked to see a sampler compilation of all of them. Personally I think that would have served the purpose of showing the camera off far better than the choice to present "short films".

yes...I agree...10 minute films followed by a 20 minute break were a little more than I could take. I wish they would have just run them together in 40 minute blocks. There is a 1080P version of Mobius floating around out there that looks pretty nice.

[Brian Drysdale]

Here's blog another comparing cameras, must be an industry in its own right:

Prolost - Blog - Red Scarlet, Canon C300, and the Paradox ofChoice

[Brett Sherman]

Scarlet is such a radically different workflow than C300. I think the post really should be titled reasons to go for the C300 over F3. I think it's a lot more challenging to come up with reasons for that.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Andy Garnett

Seriously, does anyone out there personally know anyone who is planning on buying a C300?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Andy Garnett

First, if it bombs we will never know because Canon has pride and deep pockets and can absorb the production costs.

What is your criteria for "bombing," specifically? And how exactly do you arrive at
whatever number of unit sales you think it needs to reach in order to avoid that?
Canon tends to purposefully under-produce, so my guess is that they'll sell every
one they make.

Originally Posted by Andy Garnett

Once again, without referring to mythical TV producers, does anyone know anyone who is going to buy a Canon C300?

Once again, yes. My plan is to goad at least one of these people into an exclusive review for DVi in January.

[Meryem Ersoz]

not really into defending cameras these days, there are so many good choices out there now that it's hard to make a bad choice. I would say that we have RED to thank for re-inventing the market - without RED pushing the envelope, you would be waiting a very, very long time for that F3 or C300.

One advantage to the SCARLET which has not been mentioned - the new sensor technology will be upgradeable. So it may be $20K versus $15K now, but what about in the future, when technology changes again? paying for the upgrade will cost substantially less than purchasing a new camera system, from scratch again. I have been able to re-use a lot of my RED ONE accessories on my EPIC -

especially the RED Brick batteries, which run for several hours before they need changed - people keep pointing at the RedVolts and their 35 minute run-time on this thread - but the ability to use the bricks pretty much kills off that power argument - the C300 has no advantage here whatsoever. RedVolts and Bricks are also hot-swappable, meaning if you stick in one RedVolt for the day, you never have to shut the camera down at all, while you throw on a fresh Brick - the camera will toggle seamlessly between the two power sources - I doubt the C300 has a similar functionality.

Perpetual runtime option: advantage RED.

I would say that even RED acknowledges that "obsolescense obsolete" was more of an ideal than a workable reality - things change too fast and dramatically - but they are in a pretty good groove with their upgradeable system.

I feel like I'm in good hands with RED - they have earned my trust, repeatedly.

My RED ONE is the only camera that I shot for 3 years solidly and then sold at a profit. Meanwhile, I would like to find a buyer for my XH A1, I'd be thrilled if I could get half of what I paid for it. Anyone?

And why is RED the one with an interchangeable EF/PL mount? Come on, Canon. If RED can do it, with *your* technology....the separate body thing is an outright C300 fail.