What's next? at DVinfo.net

Jean-Philippe Archibald · November 7th, 2011, 10:31 AM

I'm impressed with the C300. Not in my price range for my market, but I am happy to see which direction Canon is taking in the S35 arena.

So what will be their next move? I am sure they don't want to let the 5-10k market go. After all, this the market for a lot of people who have adopted DSLR for video work.

I don't think the announced mysterious Video DSLR that shoot 4k is the product that will fill this gap.

I think we will see something like a C100 in the near future. A Camera with a simpler sensor like a bayer one found in the FS100, smaller non detachable LCD, less output (No SDI GENLOCK), no Canon log, and no PL version, but with the same Digic DV III processor anc XF codec. A camera that will be sold for 5 to 7K. I can't believe Canon don't have this in production.

What do you think guys?

Chris Hurd · November 7th, 2011, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean-Philippe Archibald

I don't think the announced mysterious Video DSLR that shoot 4k is the product that will fill this gap.

Press release here: New Canon Digital SLR Camera Under Development at DVInfo.net

I can sum it up very simply: the "concept" piece shown in Hollywood is an EOS 1DX body with the Cinema EOS "C" logo affixed. That's all there is to it.

If it becomes real, hopefully it will have a headphone output option on the A/V jack, and clean HDMI output.

Jean-Philippe Archibald · November 7th, 2011, 11:36 AM

Yes I know Chris, I also expect this camera to have this kind of features. Maybe I was misunderstood because of my english skills (would not be the first time, I'm a french speaker).

I know this camera is comming, but it is announced as a "video oriented SLR". I don't think that the form-factor of a DSLR is ideal to shoot video. I understand Canon to whant to have something great to succeed to the 5D. and it might appeal to a lot of people. But it seem to be too much and not enough at the same time. For me, 4K is too much for the prosumer market (complicate workflow, more data to handle / archive, not asked by clients) and the DSRL form factor is not enough (Not enough space to put nd filters, output connectors, dedicated control on the body, etc).

So while it's an interesting camera that might appeal to a certain type of shooter and might also be priced in the 5k target, I don,t think it feel the gap.

I wonder if canon is not on the verge of releasing a little brother to the C300, called C100 (like the XF305 and XF105), with lots of features missing, but just enough to be a good challenger for the FS100 and AF100.

Jon Fairhurst · November 7th, 2011, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean-Philippe Archibald

...A Camera with a simpler sensor like a bayer one found in the FS100, smaller non detachable LCD, less output (No SDI GENLOCK), no Canon log, and no PL version, but with the same Digic DV III processor anc XF codec. A camera that will be sold for 5 to 7K. ...

It might not have Canon log, but it's likely to support CineStyle and other flat picture styles. That's good enough for most of us. And I'll gladly live without a detachable LCD, HD-SDI, Genlock, and PL mount.

Between the current anti-alias filter for the 5D2, the 1D X, the EOS "C" mystery cam, and the inevitable 5D3, we have good options (and will soon have more) that cost well under $10k.

Craig Panick · November 7th, 2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Press release here: New Canon Digital SLR Camera Under Development at DVInfo.net

I can sum it up very simply: the "concept" piece shown in Hollywood is an EOS 1DX body with the Cinema EOS "C" logo affixed. That's all there is to it.

If it becomes real, hopefully it will have a headphone output option on the A/V jack, and clean HDMI output.

I sincerely hope that isn't where Canon's mindset is. Makes me wonder if their video camera division is now separate from their Cinema division and we're going to have the same lack of cross-development that the video and stills divisions had.

We all work with the DSLR form factor because that's all there is at this price point (with an EF mount), but many of us want a true S35 VIDEO camera <$10,000, whether it be in the C300 form factor or something like the XF305 form factor. Compact Flash (old tech), HDMI or SDI (old tech), XLR's (old tech), S35 sensor (newer tech). And why not the same sensor, the design is done, now they just have to bake them. Build it, and I will come.

-cp

Chris Hurd · November 7th, 2011, 02:27 PM

These days there's just one division within Canon USA that handles pro video, pro photo and the new Cinema EOS line. They're not separate groups anymore... they were merged together a couple of years ago.

Craig Panick · November 7th, 2011, 02:37 PM

I like that! But how does that affect the divisions in Japan? They're still separate I assume, but hopefully working together more.

-cp

Glen Vandermolen · November 8th, 2011, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean-Philippe Archibald

I think we will see something like a C100 in the near future. A Camera with a simpler sensor like a bayer one found in the FS100, smaller non detachable LCD, less output (No SDI GENLOCK), no Canon log, and no PL version, but with the same Digic DV III processor anc XF codec. A camera that will be sold for 5 to 7K. I can't believe Canon don't have this in production.

What do you think guys?

I think that sounds reasonable. I think it would be a good move on Canon's part.

Don Miller · November 8th, 2011, 08:05 PM

They may plan on covering the under $10K price range with DSLR only for now. Canon's not like Sony with few niches uncovered.
Canon has had a few problems lately getting new product out the door. That makes me think they're hesitant about committing to too many new models. Consider the delivery date of the 1DX.

David Heath · November 9th, 2011, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean-Philippe Archibald

I think we will see something like a C100 in the near future. A Camera with a simpler sensor like a Bayer one found in the FS100, .....

The C300 sensor is actually simpler than that used in the FS100. It's a higher pixel count - about 8 megapixel versus over 3 megapixel for the FS100 - but that means it can use a very simple readout system, read full-resolution 1080 directly from the sensor, very much the same as reading the three chips in a 3-chip camera.

But the FS100 needs to readout, deBayer, and then scale to 1080. Far more complex, the beauty of the C300 system is a factor of a sensor whose dimensions are an exact multiple of 1920x1080.

It makes sense (economies of scale) to keep the same sensor in any such "C100", otherwise I agree with you, drop other features to produce a more budget camera. Even just keeping the 50Mbs codec would still give it a big advantage over the FS100/AF100.

Chris Hurd · November 9th, 2011, 08:55 AM

What features would you drop to make a C100?

For instance, I think it would be EF only -- if you can afford to go with PL glass then you can afford the C300 PL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean-Philippe Archibald

I know this camera is coming, but it is announced as a "video oriented SLR". I don't think that the form-factor of a DSLR is ideal to shoot video.

What I'm saying is, maybe that is the C100?

Don Miller · November 9th, 2011, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Heath

But the FS100 needs to readout, deBayer, and then scale to 1080. Far more complex, the beauty of the C300 system is a factor of a sensor whose dimensions are an exact multiple of 1920x1080.

Yes, and it's important to point out that bayer in other single sensor cameras guesses at two of the three color values of a pixel. The new Canon sensor actually measures each RGB value for each pixel. It's undoubtedly more accurate and sophisticated than the F3. At 1080p the Canon is capturing more real information - a lot more.
But we don't know yet if the image is a little better or a lot better. I suspect it's a lot closer to Alexa than F3.

Jim Martin · November 16th, 2011, 11:28 AM

Don, you nailed it.....This sensor is definitely doing some magic. The double green plus no de-bayering I think is the reason the picture is so good and is why I'm feeling the camera looks to be exceeding spec. Now Canon did that with the 24p HDV.....they just laid down on tape the 24 pictures, not the 60i stream...they added the stream electronically on the way out of the camera...by doing that they were able to put down more picture info on the tape, pushing the HDV spec. I really think the C300 is exceeding spec and why the picture projected at 4K was so stunning.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Don Miller · November 17th, 2011, 10:10 AM

The 4K C300 sensor also likely captures more real information than the full readout of the 5K Epic sensor. Clearly Red can't buy a sensor that matches the noise performance of what Canon and Sony can do with their huge investment in proprietary technology. Noise are errors.
1080p is just the delivery matrix. People seem to forget that it starts with measuring the photons in the image circle of the lens. Reds obviously inferior photon management means they aren't as capable of accurate measurements.
The C300 is a very good 4K sensor. The F3 is a very good simpler/cheaper 3K sensor. The Epic is, at best, a fair/good 5K sensor when compared to what the big Japanese imaging companies can make today. From that starting point, all cameras add data (demosaicing and image processing) and subtract information (compression and errors). But Red simply isn't better at what it records from the lens. It's inferior.
The C300 sensor is a better way to do 1080. I think the pixel race from still photography has resulted in a focus on certain specs that masks important technological differences.

November 7th, 2011, 10:31 AM	#1
Jean-Philippe Archibald Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Saguenay, Québec, Canada Posts: 1,051	What's next? I'm impressed with the C300. Not in my price range for my market, but I am happy to see which direction Canon is taking in the S35 arena. So what will be their next move? I am sure they don't want to let the 5-10k market go. After all, this the market for a lot of people who have adopted DSLR for video work. I don't think the announced mysterious Video DSLR that shoot 4k is the product that will fill this gap. I think we will see something like a C100 in the near future. A Camera with a simpler sensor like a bayer one found in the FS100, smaller non detachable LCD, less output (No SDI GENLOCK), no Canon log, and no PL version, but with the same Digic DV III processor anc XF codec. A camera that will be sold for 5 to 7K. I can't believe Canon don't have this in production. What do you think guys? __________________ Jean-Philippe Archibald http://www.jparchibald.com - http://www.vimeo.com/jparchib

November 7th, 2011, 11:36 AM	#3
Jean-Philippe Archibald Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Saguenay, Québec, Canada Posts: 1,051	Re: What's next? Yes I know Chris, I also expect this camera to have this kind of features. Maybe I was misunderstood because of my english skills (would not be the first time, I'm a french speaker). I know this camera is comming, but it is announced as a "video oriented SLR". I don't think that the form-factor of a DSLR is ideal to shoot video. I understand Canon to whant to have something great to succeed to the 5D. and it might appeal to a lot of people. But it seem to be too much and not enough at the same time. For me, 4K is too much for the prosumer market (complicate workflow, more data to handle / archive, not asked by clients) and the DSRL form factor is not enough (Not enough space to put nd filters, output connectors, dedicated control on the body, etc). So while it's an interesting camera that might appeal to a certain type of shooter and might also be priced in the 5k target, I don,t think it feel the gap. I wonder if canon is not on the verge of releasing a little brother to the C300, called C100 (like the XF305 and XF105), with lots of features missing, but just enough to be a good challenger for the FS100 and AF100. __________________ Jean-Philippe Archibald http://www.jparchibald.com - http://www.vimeo.com/jparchib

November 7th, 2011, 02:27 PM	#6
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Re: What's next? These days there's just one division within Canon USA that handles pro video, pro photo and the new Cinema EOS line. They're not separate groups anymore... they were merged together a couple of years ago. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 7th, 2011, 02:37 PM	#7
Craig Panick Tourist Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 3	Re: What's next? I like that! But how does that affect the divisions in Japan? They're still separate I assume, but hopefully working together more. -cp

November 8th, 2011, 08:05 PM	#9
Don Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 706	Re: What's next? They may plan on covering the under $10K price range with DSLR only for now. Canon's not like Sony with few niches uncovered. Canon has had a few problems lately getting new product out the door. That makes me think they're hesitant about committing to too many new models. Consider the delivery date of the 1DX.

November 16th, 2011, 11:28 AM	#13
Jim Martin Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Burbank, CA 91502 Posts: 949	Re: What's next? Don, you nailed it.....This sensor is definitely doing some magic. The double green plus no de-bayering I think is the reason the picture is so good and is why I'm feeling the camera looks to be exceeding spec. Now Canon did that with the 24p HDV.....they just laid down on tape the 24 pictures, not the 60i stream...they added the stream electronically on the way out of the camera...by doing that they were able to put down more picture info on the tape, pushing the HDV spec. I really think the C300 is exceeding spec and why the picture projected at 4K was so stunning. Jim Martin Filmtools.com

November 17th, 2011, 10:10 AM	#14
Don Miller Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 706	Re: What's next? The 4K C300 sensor also likely captures more real information than the full readout of the 5K Epic sensor. Clearly Red can't buy a sensor that matches the noise performance of what Canon and Sony can do with their huge investment in proprietary technology. Noise are errors. 1080p is just the delivery matrix. People seem to forget that it starts with measuring the photons in the image circle of the lens. Reds obviously inferior photon management means they aren't as capable of accurate measurements. The C300 is a very good 4K sensor. The F3 is a very good simpler/cheaper 3K sensor. The Epic is, at best, a fair/good 5K sensor when compared to what the big Japanese imaging companies can make today. From that starting point, all cameras add data (demosaicing and image processing) and subtract information (compression and errors). But Red simply isn't better at what it records from the lens. It's inferior. The C300 sensor is a better way to do 1080. I think the pixel race from still photography has resulted in a focus on certain specs that masks important technological differences.