Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

If the C300 had global shutter, that alone would be a very good sales point.

There's rolling shutter and rolling shutter......

It all depends on readout speed - faster it is, less any effect. And another beauty of the way this sensor works is that simple may well equal fast.

[Chris Hurd]

No need for a global shutter when you can do a relatively artifact-free rolling shutter.
While you can't expect to cleanly swish-pan the C300, the filmmakers who have used it have said that they had to work hard to introduce any noticeable skew.

[Jacques Mersereau]

LIke I said Chris, rolling shutter has never been a big issue in my playbook.

Okay, if I'm all wrong, who here is going to pony up and buy?

[Jon Fairhurst]

We can't really compare the rolling shutter of the two cameras yet.

The 2011 Zacuto Shootout showed a couple of interesting things:
1) The RED ONE's rolling shutter isn't as good as many would lead us to believe, and
2) The Canon 1D4 rolling shutter was about half that of the 5D2 and 7D.

Unfortunately, they weren't able to test an EPIC. With the higher frame rates available, I can only assume that the read-reset time is faster than on a ONE. But since they're using slower chips on the Scarlet X, it might have more skew than EPIC. We can guess that it will be pretty good, but it's only a guess.

Regarding Canon, the low level of 1D4 skew impressed me. The C300 will be arguably faster. The sensor has fewer pixels, a smaller size, and is of the next generation. It's designed for a high-priced Hollywood cam and will clearly be deployed in future models. Those models might do 4K and faster frame rates. My guestimate is that will have half the skew of the 1D4. But again, that's a guess.

The bottom line is that both cameras are likely competent in the rolling shutter department, but until we see the footage, we won't know.

BTW, to get a hard number, shoot some video while triggering a photo flash unit on minimum power by hand. Capture a frame where the flash starts and ends within that frame. Capture two back to back frames where the flash starts on the first and ends on the second. From these, one can calculate exactly how long the rolling shutter time is. Post the frames and I'd be happy to do the measurements. :)

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

LIke I said Chris, rolling shutter has never been a big issue in my playbook.

Okay, if I'm all wrong, who here is going to pony up and buy?

As if you couldn't tell, I'll most likely bite. Interesting, I spoke to my dealer (a major so-cal supplier) this afternoon and he said that as of this moment, canon hasn't even said who will be carrying the cameras, and thus he can't take orders for it. He fully expects that they will be approved, but there is precious little info from canon about anything at this point.

Barry

[Jacques Mersereau]

That's interesting Barry - almost seems like another thing not thought through. That said, from what I have seen, the C300 does make some wonderful images. I am sure whoever does make the purchase will certainly be happy.
Wish I could afford it myself or even suggest it for the University. But when put side by side with the F3, I couldn't justify the extra thousands. And right now, unless one needs it for a paying gig, the best thing for me is to wait until NAB (or later). Sorry to beat this horse, but if it were under $10K, that would change.

Anyone else?

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

almost seems like another thing not thought through.

Actually it has been completely thought through. Re-read Barry's post: "Canon hasn't even said who will be carrying the cameras..." which is not at all the same thing as "Canon doesn't know who will be carrying the cameras." On this forum, please read posts for what they say and not for what you want to project into them.

The C300 will be a fairly exclusive item. It's not something a person can buy on Amazon. There are going to be only 20 dealers in the U.S. that will be able to sell them. Canon has already established who they are but have not announced their identities yet. I know of two DVi sponsors who will have them. You can expect the dealer list to be made public in January.

As far as the price is concerned, my take on it is that any pre-orders and any first-month sales will most likely go for full MSRP. You can expect the price to drop quickly soon afterwards.

[Brian Drysdale]

There are also hidden running costs like the recording media. The overall package needs to costed, including the post production.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

But when put side by side with the F3, I couldn't justify the extra thousands.

"Extra thousands"?? I don't know what the situation is in the US, but in the UK I'm hearing about £12,500 as the body only price (excl VAT) for the C300 versus about £10,000 for a basic F3 body only from at least one major dealer. But for those figures you do get a full broadcast spec codec with the C300 - you have to pay extra with the F3.

I don't deny that that still makes the C300 dearer - even after buying the recorder for the F3 - but those are initial prices for the C300. Either way, the difference is small compared to the difference between either of them and something like an Alexa or F65.

[Jim Martin]

Originally Posted by Barry Goyette

As if you couldn't tell, I'll most likely bite. Interesting, I spoke to my dealer (a major so-cal supplier) this afternoon and he said that as of this moment, canon hasn't even said who will be carrying the cameras, and thus he can't take orders for it. He fully expects that they will be approved, but there is precious little info from canon about anything at this point.

Barry

Yes, there are going to be just 20 dealers with 3 of them here in LA. I can tell you that there is great interest from people here in town (TV shows, rental houses, owner/operators) and as soon as Canon makes their dealer announcement, everyone here will know who & how much. Delivery is scheduled for the last part of January. Canon is fielding requests from a number of shows to try out the camera between now and the delivery date. 2 shows are scheduled to go up in February using the C300s.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

[Jacques Mersereau]

Canon hasn't said who will be carrying the C300?

Hmm. In my world of careful production planning, I would have to label that as
either not thought through or poorly planned. In either case, it doesn't matter in the long run.

Maybe they want the re-sellers to be fighting each other for the enormous prestige of carrying the C300 Canon line, but come on, this is a camera, not blue diamonds being held back by DeBeers.
I cannot imagine that BH, BandPro and ZGC would be told no. So, again we're back to "what are they thinking'. Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

[Barry Goyette]

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

3 of them here in LA.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

I can guess who those three might be. :-)

BTW, Jim thanks to Filmtools for sending out invites to the Canon event. Unlike another product launch across town, Canon treated us all very well. It was an extremely well thought out and organized event that really highlighted the new product and it's usefulness to the industry.

Barry

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

There are also hidden running costs like the recording media. The overall package needs to costed, including the post production.

Yes, recording media is a consideration, as well as batteries. The overall package might vary from user to user (lenses, follow focus, support gear, matte box, filters...), but you can't capture a single clip without media and power.

FWIW, my understanding is that the C300 will accept normal CF cards (though you might need to buy fast, approved ones), but that Scarlet X requires RED-sourced SSD cards. Fortunately, we can re-use media, so it's not like having to buy single-sourced, overpriced tape, but one still needs to take it into account for the budget.

That said, in this range, I'd be looking at capabilities first, price a distant second. On paper the C300 looks better for fast turnaround and the Scarlet-X looks better for heavy grading. I'd rather have the right tool for the job than try to pinch pennies on the camera and media.

[Jim Martin]

Originally Posted by Barry Goyette

I can guess who those three might be. :-)

BTW, Jim thanks to Filmtools for sending out invites to the Canon event. Unlike another product launch across town, Canon treated us all very well. It was an extremely well thought out and organized event that really highlighted the new product and it's usefulness to the industry.

Barry

It was our pleasure....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

Maybe they want the re-sellers to be fighting each other for the enormous prestige of carrying the C300 Canon line

Of course not, it doesn't work that way at all, but I think you already knew that.

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

FWIW, my understanding is that the C300 will accept normal CF cards (though you might need to buy fast, approved ones)

Since it's recording the Canon XF codec, the list of approved CF cards is exactly
the same as the one that appears on the Canon XF 305 / 300 product pages...
absolutely no difference in that regard.