Does Canon ever talk to their customers?

David Rice · November 5th, 2011, 09:33 AM

After waiting over three years, I am now actively looking at buying my first non Canon product in eight years.

Mike Marriage · November 5th, 2011, 10:29 AM

I could afford to spend $20K on a camera but I'd want a camera that was properly designed as a cinema/moving image camera, NOT some weird DSLR adaptation!

As I wrote in another thread, this quote says it all: "The two years that were spent in research and development on this camera were lead by a member of Canon USA’s still photography EOS team. "

Why? It isn't a stills camera, it is supposed to be a cinema camera. Had this guy ever shot film and video on anything but a DSLR? You can still make a camera compact AND ergonomic if you understand what you are designing. The JVC HD100 line has great ergonomics and with a few design improvements such a design could be very adaptable and compact without adding much extra cost.

I have a little XF100 which I use as a lightweight expedition camera for when my PMW350 is too large. Although not perfect, it's a great little camera and for it's price and size I can forgive its problems. However the C300 appears majorly over priced and poorly designed. What is with the VF? How do you handhold it with a heavy zoom? Sure you can bolt it to a rig but then you need a new VF or monitor = more faff and more money on an already overpriced camera.

Price wise, obviously there is R&D on the new sensor but the guts are all from the XF300. Can the sensor really cost that much to produce when they can put a similarly capable sensor in a £500 stills camera? I very much doubt it. Remember this is over $10K more than an XF300 and that camera includes a fairly decent zoom lens. I think Canon would have been better going for economies of scale at a much lower price point - $6K ish. I think they would have then sold shed loads. At $20K I see no reason to choose this over an F3 which itself is far from perfect.

Mark David Williams · November 5th, 2011, 10:31 AM

David

My guess is they want to break into the market and become established as leaders. By making this camera they feel will be king. Any new cameras developed from this can rest on its laurels and the technology they developed can work its way down to lower levels.

I think their marketing campaign though has confused many who thought they were bringing in something a lot cheaper.

There is a possibility they made a turkey with the C300 and it's 8bit HDSDI out which wont go down well with pro's in my opinion and cameras like the F3 Red Scarlet have nothing to worry about.

As for talking to their customers they did They made a camera that would replace the mark 2 I guess they figured if those customers can afford a stills camera that costs nearly £2000 then they can surely afford a video camera at £20,000 either that or it was just easier to add another nought.

Seriously though They have given Consumer customers what they want at a price they can't afford and pro's a camera they can afford but wont want in my opinion.

Red where for art thou Red. We'll see. :)

Burk Webb · November 5th, 2011, 10:43 AM

"They have given Consumer customers what they want at a price they can't afford and pro's a camera they can afford but wont want in my opinion."

+1, that pretty much sums it up perfectly. You have won the internet today sir, well done.

Brian Drysdale · November 5th, 2011, 12:38 PM

I wouldn't say pros don't want it, for certain jobs it'll be an ideal tool, but even for pros the price is currently too high for what the camera is offering, It's slightly more expensive than a F3 fitted with a Nanoflash, which it should be undercutting.

Chris Hurd · November 5th, 2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

I think their marketing campaign though has confused many who thought they were bringing in something a lot cheaper.

There has been no marketing campaign for this camera... yet. I'm sure we can expect one to begin now that it has been announced.

Mark David Williams · November 6th, 2011, 02:28 AM

Maybe I got the defination wrong. Maybe it was my perception only.

So what did Canon do to cause all this furore? Nothing more than a simple message that something historic big and groundbreaking would happen on Nov 3rd which even prompted Red to announce their Scarlet on the SAME day. Marketing campaign or not. It was certainly a manouvre designed to shake the market. Rock the world.
And was everyone focused on Nov 3rd and their product. Did many hold off buying a new camera. Some sold their cameras in anticipation of buying one. Me I already had been on the phone to put my order in. Is that the defination of a succesful marketing campaign? To have customers pre ordering something that still hadn't been officially announced. Although Creative video did have its major specs on its site and Im sure it said 10 bit out. So I called them and asked to be put me at the head of the queue.

Did they get people excited, garner interest and looking forward to a date to see their product. And were they sucessful in their activities designed to promote its product and the process used to determine how the camera will be of interest to customers, and the strategy to use in sales to the perceived needs and wants of their customers as the means of staying profitable as well as making numerous demonstration films ready for the launch which now had everyones attention. I stayed up here in the UK waiting for them to sell it to me. I'd never ever do that normally.

Was this a deliberate very smart campaign or just a simple message to annouce a product or just a simple error in its Historic groundbreaking message that really meant historic for the company only. Would they have noticed the internet perception that had got it wrong. Maybe they could have explained Historic mean't "for our company." The message was for us (Canon) not you? Why didn't they correct it? Or did they take the philophosy that anyone who misinterprets it it's their own fault for reading to much into it. So on that basis is Red in the same category as me and everyone else who misinterpreted it?

Maybe It might be more accurate in describing it as the beginning of a marketing campaign from Nov 3rd. Or maybe only count the defination of the marketing campaign as and when the products hit the stores and customers begin to part with money. Because as of yet this could just be a marketing test and the price could change. Maybe even technical issues like 10 bit out resolved.

If this wasn't a good marketing campaign, and I think it was because I was drawn sucker like all through the waiting. The Specs released here and there. There I was open mouthed drooling ready to part with me cash. Then once hypnotised by the bright lights of cammie heaven.... - WHAMMO - The price. The bottom line. The hard sell... $20,000 It was at this point reality caught up and the other halfs voice ringing in my ears. "Wake up Wake up Reality's this side of the computer screen."

I don't know I'm at a loss. Okay No marketing campaign yet then. Only a release date and product description!

Mark David Williams · November 6th, 2011, 03:17 AM

One thing I'm pretty sure of. Companies like Canon and the like have to build a bond of trust between themselves and consumers. If another Camera manufacturer says something similar No one is likely to believe it.

David Heath · November 6th, 2011, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

And was everyone focused on Nov 3rd and their product. Did many hold off buying a new camera. Some sold their cameras in anticipation of buying one.

Well, I was amongst the first to say that post-announcement, anyone would be silly to buy something like an FS100 before the Nov 3rd, unless there was a pressing and immediate need for a specific project. But to sell your existing camera, in preparation for a new camera that nobody knew any details of?

"Premature" might be the first word that springs to mind......

Holding off on a purchase is one thing, selling existing kit on the basis of little more than optimism quite another.

Mark David Williams · November 6th, 2011, 03:59 AM

I never would but I have been without a camera for a while because my other half had a car accident and I had to sell my camera to help her and so I had to save and when it came to buying a new camera I held off because of this announcement. The problem is if you think that your camera is about to become history because of a new replacement Should you try to sell it before its value goes down. I think many sighed a breath of relief when the C300 was not what we thought it would be simply because their gear maintained its value. Trading in old gear for the next technological advance is important for many on a budget. Normally advances in bells and whistles are meaningless but the larger sensors are a big enough advance to warrant an upgrade for those wishing to create a film look and move away from the adapters.. The option has been there for a while to buy an SDLR but trying to shoot a film with one is not something I want to mess about with. So far the AF100 and the FS100 have failed to sway me.

So I'm kinda stuck in limbo land now and the only real alternative is to buy another EX1 and use the letus or save up another £3000 for the Red Scarlet which from others experience has had a lot of problems with cameras not working. This will also leave me without a camera for longer.

Brian Drysdale · November 6th, 2011, 06:21 AM

If going for the RED Scarlet I'd put in the order now, the price is going up in 2012.

Simon Wood · November 6th, 2011, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

If going for the RED Scarlet I'd put in the order now, the price is going up in 2012.

So, rumors are that the Canon list price is going to go down, and the Scarlet will go up?

So does anyone know what the predicted price of the C300 & Scarlet will be in 2012?

Don Miller · November 6th, 2011, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

....

So what did Canon do to cause all this furore?

Three years of being asked to simply remove the DSLR hindrances from large sensor video.
They couldn't be bothered meeting that request for those buyers. Instead they went "historic" at Paramount for a new group of potential customers.

Chris Hurd · November 6th, 2011, 10:42 AM

Simon, it's no rumor that the Scarlet price will go up -- RED said so itself that it would, starting January 1st.

As for the C300, in all honesty I don't think Canon even knows what it will sell for in 2012.

Brian Drysdale · November 6th, 2011, 10:47 AM

According to one thread on REDUser, the Scarlet is going up in price in the New Year and they quoted the price. Unfortunately, I can't remember the precise figure and there's so much verbage on the site, it takes a lot of hunting to find this sort of detail again. RED are currently taking deposits for the camera, so it could be one of their early buyer schemes.

Canon themselves mightn't apparently reduce their price, but there's no reason why the dealers have to charge it. How much they reduce it by I guess would depend on how much room to manoeuvre they've got and how much the F3 or Scarlet is affecting their sales.

Of course, RED products are bought from the manufacturer, which cuts out the dealer in the pricing chain. Factory shops are always cheaper than retail.

November 5th, 2011, 09:33 AM	#16
David Rice Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sitka Alaska Posts: 470	Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers? After waiting over three years, I am now actively looking at buying my first non Canon product in eight years.

November 5th, 2011, 10:29 AM	#17
Mike Marriage Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NE of London, England Posts: 788	Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers? I could afford to spend $20K on a camera but I'd want a camera that was properly designed as a cinema/moving image camera, NOT some weird DSLR adaptation! As I wrote in another thread, this quote says it all: "The two years that were spent in research and development on this camera were lead by a member of Canon USA’s still photography EOS team. " Why? It isn't a stills camera, it is supposed to be a cinema camera. Had this guy ever shot film and video on anything but a DSLR? You can still make a camera compact AND ergonomic if you understand what you are designing. The JVC HD100 line has great ergonomics and with a few design improvements such a design could be very adaptable and compact without adding much extra cost. I have a little XF100 which I use as a lightweight expedition camera for when my PMW350 is too large. Although not perfect, it's a great little camera and for it's price and size I can forgive its problems. However the C300 appears majorly over priced and poorly designed. What is with the VF? How do you handhold it with a heavy zoom? Sure you can bolt it to a rig but then you need a new VF or monitor = more faff and more money on an already overpriced camera. Price wise, obviously there is R&D on the new sensor but the guts are all from the XF300. Can the sensor really cost that much to produce when they can put a similarly capable sensor in a £500 stills camera? I very much doubt it. Remember this is over $10K more than an XF300 and that camera includes a fairly decent zoom lens. I think Canon would have been better going for economies of scale at a much lower price point - $6K ish. I think they would have then sold shed loads. At $20K I see no reason to choose this over an F3 which itself is far from perfect. __________________ www.mikemarriage.com

November 5th, 2011, 10:31 AM	#18
Mark David Williams Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Hertfordshire UK Posts: 414	Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers? David My guess is they want to break into the market and become established as leaders. By making this camera they feel will be king. Any new cameras developed from this can rest on its laurels and the technology they developed can work its way down to lower levels. I think their marketing campaign though has confused many who thought they were bringing in something a lot cheaper. There is a possibility they made a turkey with the C300 and it's 8bit HDSDI out which wont go down well with pro's in my opinion and cameras like the F3 Red Scarlet have nothing to worry about. As for talking to their customers they did They made a camera that would replace the mark 2 I guess they figured if those customers can afford a stills camera that costs nearly £2000 then they can surely afford a video camera at £20,000 either that or it was just easier to add another nought. Seriously though They have given Consumer customers what they want at a price they can't afford and pro's a camera they can afford but wont want in my opinion. Red where for art thou Red. We'll see. :)

November 5th, 2011, 10:43 AM	#19
Burk Webb Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 249	Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers? "They have given Consumer customers what they want at a price they can't afford and pro's a camera they can afford but wont want in my opinion." +1, that pretty much sums it up perfectly. You have won the internet today sir, well done.

November 5th, 2011, 12:38 PM	#20
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers? I wouldn't say pros don't want it, for certain jobs it'll be an ideal tool, but even for pros the price is currently too high for what the camera is offering, It's slightly more expensive than a F3 fitted with a Nanoflash, which it should be undercutting.

November 6th, 2011, 02:28 AM	#22
Mark David Williams Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Hertfordshire UK Posts: 414	Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers? Maybe I got the defination wrong. Maybe it was my perception only. So what did Canon do to cause all this furore? Nothing more than a simple message that something historic big and groundbreaking would happen on Nov 3rd which even prompted Red to announce their Scarlet on the SAME day. Marketing campaign or not. It was certainly a manouvre designed to shake the market. Rock the world. And was everyone focused on Nov 3rd and their product. Did many hold off buying a new camera. Some sold their cameras in anticipation of buying one. Me I already had been on the phone to put my order in. Is that the defination of a succesful marketing campaign? To have customers pre ordering something that still hadn't been officially announced. Although Creative video did have its major specs on its site and Im sure it said 10 bit out. So I called them and asked to be put me at the head of the queue. Did they get people excited, garner interest and looking forward to a date to see their product. And were they sucessful in their activities designed to promote its product and the process used to determine how the camera will be of interest to customers, and the strategy to use in sales to the perceived needs and wants of their customers as the means of staying profitable as well as making numerous demonstration films ready for the launch which now had everyones attention. I stayed up here in the UK waiting for them to sell it to me. I'd never ever do that normally. Was this a deliberate very smart campaign or just a simple message to annouce a product or just a simple error in its Historic groundbreaking message that really meant historic for the company only. Would they have noticed the internet perception that had got it wrong. Maybe they could have explained Historic mean't "for our company." The message was for us (Canon) not you? Why didn't they correct it? Or did they take the philophosy that anyone who misinterprets it it's their own fault for reading to much into it. So on that basis is Red in the same category as me and everyone else who misinterpreted it? Maybe It might be more accurate in describing it as the beginning of a marketing campaign from Nov 3rd. Or maybe only count the defination of the marketing campaign as and when the products hit the stores and customers begin to part with money. Because as of yet this could just be a marketing test and the price could change. Maybe even technical issues like 10 bit out resolved. If this wasn't a good marketing campaign, and I think it was because I was drawn sucker like all through the waiting. The Specs released here and there. There I was open mouthed drooling ready to part with me cash. Then once hypnotised by the bright lights of cammie heaven.... - WHAMMO - The price. The bottom line. The hard sell... $20,000 It was at this point reality caught up and the other halfs voice ringing in my ears. "Wake up Wake up Reality's this side of the computer screen." I don't know I'm at a loss. Okay No marketing campaign yet then. Only a release date and product description!

November 6th, 2011, 03:17 AM	#23
Mark David Williams Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Hertfordshire UK Posts: 414	Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers? One thing I'm pretty sure of. Companies like Canon and the like have to build a bond of trust between themselves and consumers. If another Camera manufacturer says something similar No one is likely to believe it.

November 6th, 2011, 03:59 AM	#25
Mark David Williams Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Hertfordshire UK Posts: 414	Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers? I never would but I have been without a camera for a while because my other half had a car accident and I had to sell my camera to help her and so I had to save and when it came to buying a new camera I held off because of this announcement. The problem is if you think that your camera is about to become history because of a new replacement Should you try to sell it before its value goes down. I think many sighed a breath of relief when the C300 was not what we thought it would be simply because their gear maintained its value. Trading in old gear for the next technological advance is important for many on a budget. Normally advances in bells and whistles are meaningless but the larger sensors are a big enough advance to warrant an upgrade for those wishing to create a film look and move away from the adapters.. The option has been there for a while to buy an SDLR but trying to shoot a film with one is not something I want to mess about with. So far the AF100 and the FS100 have failed to sway me. So I'm kinda stuck in limbo land now and the only real alternative is to buy another EX1 and use the letus or save up another £3000 for the Red Scarlet which from others experience has had a lot of problems with cameras not working. This will also leave me without a camera for longer.

November 6th, 2011, 06:21 AM	#26
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers? If going for the RED Scarlet I'd put in the order now, the price is going up in 2012.

November 6th, 2011, 10:42 AM	#29
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers? Simon, it's no rumor that the Scarlet price will go up -- RED said so itself that it would, starting January 1st. As for the C300, in all honesty I don't think Canon even knows what it will sell for in 2012. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 6th, 2011, 10:47 AM	#30
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Does Canon ever talk to their customers? According to one thread on REDUser, the Scarlet is going up in price in the New Year and they quoted the price. Unfortunately, I can't remember the precise figure and there's so much verbage on the site, it takes a lot of hunting to find this sort of detail again. RED are currently taking deposits for the camera, so it could be one of their early buyer schemes. Canon themselves mightn't apparently reduce their price, but there's no reason why the dealers have to charge it. How much they reduce it by I guess would depend on how much room to manoeuvre they've got and how much the F3 or Scarlet is affecting their sales. Of course, RED products are bought from the manufacturer, which cuts out the dealer in the pricing chain. Factory shops are always cheaper than retail.