C300 Discussion

[Mark David Williams]

I remember reading a conversation on the cinematography website with Phil Rhodes and I think Jim Jannard about debayering Very confusing for me then and it sort of ended in a stalemate with both sides convinced they were right. Be nice to see an animation explaining it all. Although the new Canon sensor may have a better way of doing things would it improve in a way that would be beneficial I think we can speculate all we want and would be nice later to see some tests. Personally I'm going to say probably not.

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

So can I ask what made you change your mind since this?
HDCAM or DVCPRO-HD - Cinematography.com

I haven't changed my mind, they are cameras for a different markets, If we were talking about the modern equivalent of a HDCAM camera we would considering HDCAM SR or equivalent. There a good chance that the codec in the C300 is better than HDCAM in a camera that is lot less expensive.

As is usual with these things are trade offs going on in designing a camera. Canon should have considered putting a 10 bit HD SDI in the camera, whether there was a problem in doing so only they know. They may have been trying to keep the processing down and therefore the heat inside a compact body.

Re grading, you're not doing shot to shot grading as such, but you can achieve the basic overall look within the higher bit processing of the camera before recording onto 8 bit. This is something that the DITs did with the F900. They'd carry a notebook or memory stick with the different settings for the looks, using the waveform monitor and vector scope combined with the colour charts to do this. With these tools, you can also get the exposure pretty precise as well.

[Mark David Williams]

Brian You were advising the guy on that forum 3 years ago about his 16mm shoot school project to avoid using 8 bit and to avoid using HDCAM but then you told me on here earlier that professionals often use 8 bit HDCAM as an example why 8 bit is okay on the Canon.

Sorry I'm confused?

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

Although the new Canon sensor may have a better way of doing things would it improve in a way that would be beneficial I think we can speculate all we want and would be nice later to see some tests. Personally I'm going to say probably not.

Mark, it sounds like your mind is definitely made up! I think you have firmly
established your thoughts about the C300. I'd like to thank you for your input
here, and I'm looking forward to your continuing input on our XDCAM boards.

Just as a reminder to everyone here, the way we've been doing things on
this site for the past ten years is that we strongly encourage folks to hang
out and participate in the areas representing whatever gear they happen to
own and use. One thing we tend to discourage, however, is camping out in
a forum for a camera that a person has no intention of buying. Instead of
nay-saying whatever equipment you don't like, it's much more productive
and helpful for everyone if that time is spent being active and talking
about what you're using (or want to use).

We've done the 8-bits vs. 10-bits thing for several pages in a row and it's
really gone around in circles quite a bit. The entire discussion remains in
full view for anyone to read through and research.

The Canon C300 is definitely 8-bit, for better or for worse, and that is not
going to change. If there's anyone out there for whom two bits is a deal-
breaker, please read through the previous pages. If you're convinced
that you need 10-bit output regardless of what the image looks like,
then most likely this is not the camera for you.

At this point we need to move forward... since the "anti-8-bit" mantra has
been explained more than a few times, we really don't need to rehash it
anymore (until the camera comes out, perhaps). Any other questions,
comments or issues regarding the C300 are warmly welcome, of course.

Thanks for understanding,

[Jim Martin]

Originally Posted by Tim Le

Sorry I missed you at the event too, Chris. Although I did spy Jim Martin bogarting all the C300 posters ;)

Yes, Canon offered to print up the centerfold as well as some from the drive they gave out so we could mount them and put them up on the walls of our store & camera room......those printers really put out very nice prints!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

Brian You were advising the guy on that forum 3 years ago about his 16mm shoot school project to avoid using 8 bit and to avoid using HDCAM but then you told me on here earlier that professionals often use 8 bit HDCAM as an example why 8 bit is okay on the Canon.

Sorry I'm confused?

That's a totally post process, it doesn't involve a camera and the 16mm student film may need more grading than you need with a video camera, where you can pretty much nail the exposure and most of the colour within the camera. The skill levels needed in lighting is higher because you don't have a monitor that allows to to see what it looks like, so they may need that extra help grading. A bigger problem if they're doing a single light transfer on the telecine.

With a totally photochemical process using prints there can be aspects you can't control, so you have to nail lighting contrast by experience and judgement.

[Chris Hurd]

Thanks for the FilmTools baseball cap, Jim -- that's good swag!

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

I remember reading a conversation .... about debayering Very confusing for me then .......... Be nice to see an animation explaining it all.

How about this? HowStuffWorks "Demosaicing Algorithms: Color Filtering"

Scroll down and click on "Begin Demoisacing algorithm".

What it shows is how each OUTPUT pixel is interpolated from several sensor photosites. Hence a sort of "averaging" process going on - which is why the luminance/chrominance resolution figures fall short of the total.

Although the new Canon sensor may have a better way of doing things would it improve in a way that would be beneficial ........

Direct 1080 read out (as with the C300) means no downconversion. That can only be a good thing.

Additionally, if you DO deBayer the full sensor, you end up with something approaching 4k resolution (and a 4k raster). So for the future, it opens the way to an optimised dual 4k/1080p camera. In that case (for 4k), expect RAW recording, so the deBayering done in software.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by David Heath

Direct 1080 read out (as with the C300) means no downconversion. That can only be a good thing.

In a nutshell, that's pretty much how Larry Thorpe explained it on Nov. 3rd at Paramount.

The short answer is that color information goes to the processor the same way as it would from a three-chip sensor block.

In this pic, L to R:

L. Thorpe, E. Peck, (translator? unk.), M. Maeda, J. Fauer, A. Krudo, S. Nicholson, F. Alcala, V. Laforet

[Steve Kalle]

Originally Posted by David Heath

In that case (for 4k), expect RAW recording, so the deBayering done in software.

And start saving up for Canon's version of the Red Rocket ... or a seriously powerful 12+ core PC .... or hope that your NLE adds GPU assisted debayering ;)

[Jim Martin]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Thanks for the FilmTools baseball cap, Jim -- that's good swag!

My pleasure.......

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

[Dom Stevenson]

Chris Hurd at 3.41 pm

Thank heaven's for that. Some sanity at last. Great post!

[Don Miller]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

Additionally, if you DO deBayer the full sensor, you end up with something approaching 4k resolution (and a 4k raster). So for the future, it opens the way to an optimised dual 4k/1080p camera. In that case (for 4k), expect RAW recording, so the deBayering done in software.

It's interesting that 4K has no more real information than the 1080p output. Which is a backwards explanation of why the C300 image could/should be superior to the 2-3K bayer image like the F3.

Resizing C300 1080p output to 4K should produce about the same result as capturing 4K from SDI.

[Emmanuel Plakiotis]

Now that we are over the bit argument, a link with some interesting info for the camera:

10 Things You May Not Know About The Canon EOS C300 & Future Of Cinema EOS » Dan Carr Photography - Photography Product Reviews + Ski, Snowboard and adventure photography tips

[Murray Christian]

I hate to drag it back to this, but I'm late to the bit party and I feel like with all these knowledgeable types around I'd be crazy not to.

Haven't we, as a viewing public, been slowly moving towards 10bit presentation as standard? (I have a 10bit monitor, for example. Its not true 10bit but it's accommodating such)

Is that a)totally irrelevant to this argument for technical reasons I don't understand? and/or b) really something that, like higher frame rate standards, has been "any day now" for a decade and truly no one with any real clout cares to push it forward?

"Not in this thread. Go away". is an acceptable response.