C300 Discussion

[Mike Marriage]

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

these days, every camera is front heavy...and everyone is using some type of shoulder rig. DSLRs, the Epic, AF100, FS100, Alexa, etc, all are not good as a stand alone shoulder mount thus, we are selling a lot of shoulder mounts.

The Alexa sits very well on the shoulder and is very well regarded for its ergonomics. It is a great example of how Arri understands movie camera design. I haven't used the Epic but the others listed are more good examples or poor ergonomic designs for movie cameras and as you say require add ons in order to work ergonomically.

The other manufacturer who seems to "get" ergonomics is JVC but they seem to have fallen behind a little in other areas.

[Mark David Williams]

1) Jim Nothing wrong with 8 bits as an end result at all. The reason you would want at least 10 bits is for grading in post. YES you can grade in camera on the shoot but then that's the look you will be stuck with. Watching the films I thought many times that the quality was outstanding but here and there would in the quiet time of post done more work. More obvious examples were night skies being to blue when filming in really low light situations.

The 10 bit issue won't go away unfortunatley.

I also noticed that Creative video is advertising the camera with 10 bit out I did tell them and the salesman looked at the page and said he would do something. Needless to say its still there along with a new ad for the PL mount also claiming it to be 10 bit out.

2) If the camera is $20,000 it's expected to have a design suitable for the purpose it's intended. In this case cinematic films. DSLR cameras are mean't to be still cameras and not diesigned for film making use. But a new market of frames for these cameras like zacuto which greatly adds to the expense. The modular idea from Red is not everyone's ideal. Some may want a small camera to get into places or to be discreet etc. But not too small the lens unbalances it and makes it heavy one end and also to have all the bits in the right place with large enough controls to fall neatly to hand without fiddling and the right tools on the outside and not buried in menu's Personally I hate handheld shots and would keep my camera on a tripod rail or stedicam.I think for most wanting to make films they want a camera that has clear usable colour coded buttons with a decent enough size to give easy access to all it's workings and a sensible weight to balance etc and also I think to handhold and make smoother shots with a heavier weight. Something that is solidly constructed and not going to break if it hits the floor. Not to heavy though for hard to get to shots

3) I don't think any of the film makers that made these superb shorts for canon would say something they didn't truly believe. Has anyone here actually said that they did? I think sometimes though listening to the film makers and the making of films you have to listen to what people don't say as well.

4) Will people use this camera as a serious film making tool? I can only answer for myself and although I love the picture I can't afford it first of all but if I could and I really love the picture I would go for the F3 with S log only because it has 10 bit out.

I think the first thing Canon should consider is if the price is going to drop is to do it now Because those who have been deterred by price will make their decision now and see no point waiting for a possible drop and sales will be lost in my opinion.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

I also noticed that Creative video is advertising the camera with 10 bit out I did tell them and the salesman looked at the page and said he would do something.

Good on you, Mark -- that definitely needs to be fixed!

[Tim Le]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Sorry I missed you there, Tim!

Sorry I missed you at the event too, Chris. Although I did spy Jim Martin bogarting all the C300 posters ;)

Originally Posted by Mike Marriage

The Alexa sits very well on the shoulder and is very well regarded for its ergonomics. It is a great example of how Arri understands movie camera design. I haven't used the Epic but the others listed are more good examples or poor ergonomic designs for movie cameras and as you say require add ons in order to work ergonomically.

I like the shoulder mount form factor too, but I can see why the C300 was designed the way it was. Apparently they only needed a certain amount of electronics to run it, so that's all the space they needed to package it. To get to a shoulder mount form factor, the camera has to be longer. Even if they made the camera lower and more squat, it probably would not have contributed much to the length.

Maybe one day they'll design an optical viewfinder/rotating mirror assembly and that will justify making the camera longer and more slender like an Aaton Penelope-D. That would be sweet!

[Dylan Couper]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Actually, the LCD / XLR unit included with the C300 can be positioned
on the left side, or wherever you want to put it... see pics below for an
example of a left-side mount, using an arm from RedRock Micro.

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooh..... How did I not get that? Huh. Ok, I stand corrected (and thankfully, thats cooler than I thought!)

[Steve Kalle]

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

A few thoughts after digesting what everyone is posting......
1) ....and the fact that ALL of the DPs categorically stated that 8 bit was a non-issue.
Jim Martin

DP's have little to no involvement with post production and grading; so, to them, 8 vs 10 bits makes little difference.

Even for smaller projects, there are a large number of people requesting 10bit acquisition. Just ask the Convergent Design guys who have seen countless requests for a 10bit nanoFlash. On the topic of 8 vs 10 bit, the best people to ask are colorists. As someone who has been learning Resolve, color science and vfx in addition to other topics, I totally see the value for 10bit acquisition. There is a reason why 10bit DPX, 16bit TIFF and 32bit OpenEXR files are heavily used in features and commercials which use good amounts of vfx, 3D modelling and heavy grading. And there is a reason why Red, several Sony Cinealta cameras and the Alexa all have the ability to record at 12bits (and even 16bits for the F65).

With that said, most network shows don't require heavy grading or extensive vfx. As far as I can tell, this camera isn't designed to compete against Red, Sony's F35, SRW9000, F65 or Alexa for high-end cinema. Also, all high-end grading apps work in 32bpc and many vfx & NLE programs have the ability to work in 32bpc, which works wonders with 8 bit images. I took an 8bit JPEG into Photoshop, edited in 32bpc and created a set extension including making the sky larger (which was an orange gradient). Then, I brought into AE, edited in 32bpc and rendered as an 8bit H264 for the web (so, heavily compressed), and I had zero problems with banding. 8bits is not 'bad'.

However, for the C300, 12 stops in Canon Log is really pushing what 8bits can handle. Being able to record the 12 stop Log image in 10bits would make it much easier for post processing. Are there workarounds? Yes, but not many people can afford or have the ability to manipulate an image like professional colorists. However, most people don't need to manipulate an image like colorists do.

[Brian Drysdale]

It should also be pointed out that many DPs are used to shooting 8bit, they've been doing it for years on HDCAM. They also often have a DIT who is used to getting the best out the cameras.

I gather there weren't any real problems with the green screen work on one of the films. So, it may be the case of waiting to see what the cameras are capable of in practise.

[Mike Marriage]

I wonder why Canon excluded a 10 bit output, it is present on many far cheaper cameras suggesting it isn't expensive to implement. Image quality aside, 8 bit is a bad marketing move. It either hints at protecting a future higher model or simple bad homework.

Just for the record I really like Canon and own four of their cameras, they just appear to have dropped the ball with the C300 IMO.

I also really like the 50Mbps codec but I'm surprised at the limitations that they think are acceptable at this price. My guess is that the output specs were fixed prior to the announcement of the F3.

[Brian Drysdale]

Indeed, there could be a 4k version, using the same sensor possibly coming out. Canon may not have taken on board the availably of the 10 bit 3rd party external recorders in the same way as Sony did with the F3 and who also had the s-log as part of their game plan.

[Mark David Williams]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

It should also be pointed out that many DPs are used to shooting 8bit, they've been doing it for years on HDCAM. They also often have a DIT who is used to getting the best out the cameras.

Like using the HDSDI 10 bit out on HDcam or using HDcam SR.
Does anyone proffessionaly shoot feature films or higher end stuff in 8 bits these days?

[Paul Curtis]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

Like using the HDSDI 10 bit out on HDcam or using HDcam SR.
Does anyone proffessionaly shoot in 8 bits these days?

Are people forgetting that this can be 8bit log? This is more like a 10bit signal in terms of range from shadows to highlights. From what i have read the image is nicely dithered with a touch of noise which would reduce banding.

Plenty of folk work in 8bits.

cheers
paul

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

Like using the HDSDI 10 bit out on HDcam or using HDcam SR.
Does anyone proffessionaly shoot feature films or higher end stuff in 8 bits these days?

I was on set in Hollywood last week watching a shoot for an upcoming series on Comedy Central.
Full crew, the works, dolly etc., standard two-camera set-up using Sony F3's. I asked, are these
dual-link out? The answer was no. They were using the S-Log upgrade though.

8-bit vs. 10-bit seems to be the trendy argument du jour but the reality is that 8-bit simply
is not a limitation, depending on the type of work you're doing. There's a lot of television that
won't be heavily graded.

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

Like using the HDSDI 10 bit out on HDcam or using HDcam SR.
Does anyone proffessionaly shoot feature films or higher end stuff in 8 bits these days?

I'm not saying many feature films do still use 8 bit, but many DPs have experience using it and are aware of any limitations. However, some TV dramas are shot on 8 bit DSLRs and these are also being used on feature films as B cameras. These have far more limitations than the C300.

Any HDCAM being shot is more for broadcast TV than theatrical these days and they're also using 8 bit in the pretty common XDCAM HD, its replacement. As a format it was used for other work than shooting feature films. This gear tends to be used long after the latest toys come out, so once established in use by a broadcaster, they tend stay in use.

If the cost difference on a low budget feature means shooting on 8 bit and affording a better actor, you go for that rather than 10 bit. You have to workout your priorities for a film.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

8-bit vs. 10-bit seems to be the trendy argument du jour but the reality is that 8-bit simply is not a limitation, depending on the type of work you're doing. There's a lot of television that won't be heavily graded.

Exactly, and well said.

It may be time to bring this up again - the EBU codec trials. (XDCAM422 being one of them.) - http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/general-...dec-tests.html

and in particular, the EBUs current advice:

The 8-bit bit-depth is sufficient for mainstream programmes, but 10-bit bit-depth is preferred for high-end acquisition. .......All tested codecs have shown quasitransparent quality up to at least 4 to 5 multi-generations,.........

That's the EBU talking about mainstream, broadcast programming from some of the worlds biggest broadcasters. That's not saying there's never any point in a 10 bit system - it depends on the work you're doing (as Chris says) - what it does mean is that far too much emphasis is being put on 8 bit v 10 bit by a lot of people.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by David Heath

far too much emphasis is being put on 8 bit v 10 bit by a lot of people.

Exactly my point -- thank you, David!