C300 Discussion

[Jim Martin]

Originally Posted by Steve Kimmel

Even viewing on Vimeo, the footage from the C300 looks impressive.

But, they also were using some pretty nice glass and recording to external recorders as seen on some of the behind-the-scenes stuff. I suspect that have very good colorists as well.

As much as "average Joe" footage can be not helpful, I would like to see some of that as well, compared with, say the F3, under like with like situations.

Nope, all the films were shot using the internal 50mb 422 XF codec....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

[Steve Kimmel]

Thanks Jim. Even more impressive! (Thought I saw external recorder in a few shots, thanks for correcting)

[Henry Coll]

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

2) Most all of the people in attendance realized that the camera really has a very good/special chip/picture taker. The colors, film grain, contrast, etc looked fantastic...all being recorded in camera with the XF codec...which is almost identical to the Alexa's codec.

3) Some of you are suffering from "spec" disease...."8 bit is soo terrible" .....its not...look at the picture properly, listen to the people who shot these films...who all stated how well this footage did in post.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Take the best source you can think of, for instance 35mm film scanned with an ARRISCAN at 4k.

Now compress it to 50Mbps MPEG-2 4:2:2, and to 1,200Mbps uncompressed 10 bit RGB 4:4:4.
Now decide which looks better and gives you more room in Post.

The first method is the C300. The second is an F3 with a Gemini or similar recorder.

[Chris Hurd]

It is a very serious mistake to focus solely on numbers.

The proof is entirely in the image. I sat in the Paramount theater with several
hundred people and I saw beautiful pictures -- especially Sam Nicholson's
"XXIT" short -- and heard nothing but compliments about the image quality,
from an audience consisting mostly of filmmakers.

None of the complaints I've been reading about 8-bit have come from anyone
that has actually seen the output quality, as far as I know.

[Barry Goyette]

Not that it really needs to be said, as Chris has already said it 10 times...but the proof being in the pudding, the footage I saw at the Paramount theatre left my jaw bruised from hitting the floor so many times. I would have never expected 1080P to look that good, from any camera. Looking really hard at it, as I'm sure every filmmaker in the room was, there was simply nothing that would raise a red flag in terms of image quality, short of some static grain on some of the ultra high gain stuff.

I may be drinking the Kool-Aid, but I do really believe canon has tossed a little magic in the JuJu on this camera....and the numbers really don't tell the story.

That said. For the most part the films I saw had a pretty conservative approach to color grading. I do wonder how the 8 bit pipeline will hold up against more severe shaping. As most of the films were shot using C-log which really does need a relatively significant amount of grading, and the results stellar, my guess is that you could shoot a standard gamma and tweak to your hearts content. Hopefully canon will make available some ungraded footage for us to play with.

I for one, hope that Chris is also correct regarding the price. I'm in the legions who expected this to be in the ballpark of $10-12k and I think canon does really want to sell a boat full of these...Bringing it in sub-$16k would probably assist in that goal.

[Justin Molush]

I would really like to get involved in a production with this cam and see what it does, beginning to end... I want to see how it shoots, how the footage stands up to compositing/greenscreen/grading, etc....

Its really difficult for me to make a decision on which I would spend money with because the amount of quality glass available in EF mount is something to consider, and the full control of the lens from the body with no extra adapters etc... I dont think the F3 has the ability to control EF mounts, do they? Then again, lack of 1080/60p really.... really kind of puts a damper on everything for me as I really do use higher framerates for everything I shoot.

Firmware update canon... let's go!

Also - Im guessing HD-SDI signal is only 4:2:2 as well?

[Chris Hurd]

Yes, SDI output is 4:2:2

Firmware update for 1080p60 is highly unlikely. 720p60 is already in the camera though.

[Steve Kalle]

Like Chris explained earlier, many cinema cameras have been 1080p and have been very popular such as the F23, F35, Genesis, Alexa, to name a few. While 4k-5k does offer some advantage, it is just not *needed* for high end cinema. For heavy vfx movies, creating effects and 3D models in 4k is completely out of the question due to the extra time and cost and not to mention, the extra rendering overhead. The hundreds of Terabytes used for 3D heavy films is insane enough for 1080p and computers haven't gotten that much faster to compensate for quadrupling the number of pixels to calculate.

I recently read about a new render format for 3D programs in order to reduce storage requirements. One example was a 6s shot from Smurfs that took up 18GB at 1080p down to a few hundred MBs.

Film has been scanned and edited at only 2k for many productions and many productions also export R3D 4k to 2k files for editing and compositing.

1080p is good enough for high end cinema and will continue to be for quite some time. The *only* issue I see with the C300 is being limited to 8bit acquisition and how well its log gamma in 8bit will hold up with people outside of using Resolve. Personally, I have seen how well an 8bit image holds up in a 32bpc Floating Point environment; so, I know its possible to push 8bit images. However, noise will greatly limit one's ability and we have yet to see how the C300 compares to its nearest competitor, the F3, which is already very clean.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Frankly, 720p60 might be enough in many situations. Often slow motion is used along with some distortion for a sleepy/drugged/injured POV shot. Lower resolution wouldn't be a problem.

Can I assume that the 720p60 is full raster? If so, that would be in contrast to the windowed 2K/1080 60p in the Scarlet X.

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

It is a very serious mistake to focus solely on numbers.
.

Indeed, one rather fussy high end DP, who was there commented that regardless of the 8 bit, the images looked good.

They now have web site

http://www.canoncinemaeos.com/index.php

There are a number of features on the camera which are worth checking out like waveform and a vectorscope.

[Mark David Williams]

If the sensor is 4k and grading with the S log is done at the sensor level I can only imagine the possibilities of this. No wonder the images are stunning.

[Mark David Williams]

Maybe Sony MIGHT include S log as standard on the F3 after this! Still no match for the C300 though except in choice of grading in post of course.

[Mark David Williams]

My guess is there will be an even more professional camera to come for their 4K lenses. I don't think its likely to grade at 4k in post so grade in camera with s log still but with maybe a second s log 10 bit out.. Well that would finish it wouldn't it. Competition obliterated.

Hmm seems like this just the beginning of something really REALLY BIG That still maintains Pro and consumer markets and gives the competition a damn good hiding.

[Henry Coll]

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

My guess is there will be an even more professional camera to come for their 4K lenses. I don't think its likely to grade at 4k in post so grade in camera with s log still but with maybe a second s log 10 bit out.. Well that would finish it wouldn't it. Competition obliterated..

As Larry Thorpe has said, Canon has essentially put a brand new S35 sensor into the XF300 (rather than develop everything else), so they could release a product in just 2 years.

For professional work the camera is still lacking IMO. It doesn't make sense to put a $50k PL zoom in there just to get an 8bit signal. Likewise, on professional environments you need clean 3Dlink Log output to go to the recorders with a simultaneous SDI with LUT for the producer or client monitor, who'd wonder whether the camera is broken if you were to feed them an ungraded Log curve. You can of course do this with a vey expensive Cinetal monitor with 3DLUTs, but that one is for the DIT guy. Also, let's not forget the 1AC (focus puller) also needs a separarate monitor with a 709 LUT for focussing (unless he's an old school guy who works by feet reference).

The list goes on and on. No 60p either, etc. Let's remember Canon has adressed Hollywood and drama TV with this camera. I'm sure as we speak, a true professional camera (actually having the features that a pale cheap F3 sports) is being developed in Canon labs, one that will properly take advantage of all features of this new Canon S35 sensor.

[Mark David Williams]

Henry

That's why I think they may have a Professional camera just around the corner!

IE NAB!