Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

[Chris Barcellos]

Black tie affair ??????

Sounds like one of those "if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it affairs".....

[Jon Fairhurst]

My feeling is that on Nov 4th, us budget indies will go quietly back to our DSLRs.

A few days ago, Jim Jannard posted

"Scarlet is now a professional camera. It will be more expensive. And there will be no discounts for RED ONE owners.

That is all the bad news there is..."

And Canon's announcement about a Hollywood service facility hints at a studio, rather than an indie, strategy. As does the Paramount location and black tie approach to the event.

My guess? Take the 1D X guts and put them into a video body with video features, raise the price a bit, and you have your camera. Maybe there's a FF as well as an S35 version.

Down here in DSLR land, we'll get a 5D3 that still has aliasing. Hopefully, the anti-aliasing filter fits the new cam. Rolling shutter and noise reduction will be improved as will autofocus. The 7D2 might have dual processors without aliasing. That could be the killer DSLR for the budget video crowd.

The thing is, no video camera will offer the volume pricing advantages of DSLRs. If you can live with or work around the shortcomings, DSLRs will still be the way to go for many of us.

[Peer Landa]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

My feeling is that on Nov 4th, us budget indies will go quietly back to our DSLRs.

Just great -- now I'm starting to regret that I sold my 5D2 prior to the Nov. 3rd event, especially if also the Scarlet ends up above my budget.

-- peer

[Chris Barcellos]

Thats kind of feeling I have at this point. But we shall see.

[Brian Drysdale]

It depends what you define "indie" as, the traditional industry meaning is a production made outside the studios.

There are a whole range of low budget independent productions that a $10-15k camera is the ideal tool, there are others for which a $6k camera would work better. The Studio films are well serviced on the camera front with the Epic, Alexa, the up coming F65 and Aaton Penelope, plus film. These could also be the choice of higher budget independent productions.

The DSLRs with their large production volumes, will usually be cheaper, although I'd imagine with video improvements that don't compromise the image quality for their main market.

[Allan Black]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Canon's announcement about a Hollywood service facility hints at a studio, rather than an indie, strategy. As does the Paramount location and black tie approach to the event.

I agree, but they're making such a noise about it, that a pro movie camera will be attached and probably a cut down version aimed at us.

Otherwise RED would just sit back and watch, and not offer their new pro cam on the same day.

Cheers.

[Jon Fairhurst]

@ Brian, yep. There are many price ranges that can find interest outside of the studios. No one word captures that.

I chose the word "indie" specifically because of the traditional use of the word. Both Canon and Red seem to be targeting the studios. Where things get murky is that lots of indie productions use the same level of equipment as the studios. "Prosumer" probably makes more sense.

I tend to see things in these price ranges. (Your names for the ranges may vary.):
< 1,000 = consumer - 60D, HV40
1,000 - 3,000 = budget prosumer - 7D, many small 1/3" cams
3,000 - 5,000 = prosumer - 5D2 (with some accessories), mid-sized 1/3" cams
5,000 - 10,000 = budget professional - 1D X, AF100, FS100, EX1, EX3...
> 10,000 - professional
> 17,000 - studio (As I recall, the RED ONE is $17k. This is the cheapest S35 without aliasing, right?)

The consumer can plonk down <$1k without breaking a sweat. A serious hobbyist can go over $1k, but family and budget concerns set limits. $3,000 is an interesting break point for businesses as such products can be claimed as a capital expenditure. By $5K one needs to become more serious about making money with the thing. At $10k and up, one definitely needs the camera to be part of a business plan.

Of course, with any such ranges, there is no right or wrong. These are just my perceived ranges.

[Chris Hurd]

For the past ten years, I have maintained that a camera (camcorder) is one of only two things:

Either it's business expense,

Or it's a luxury item.

If it's used to make money, then it's a business expense. If it's not used for that purpose, then it's a luxury item.

[David Heath]

It's still my feeling that we'll see more than one camera, and hence the announcement becomes more about a "family" than a single model.

At the very least, I'd expect to see product around the pricing of the FS100/AF100, and again around that of the F3 - the former obviously lacking some features of the latter. (And 4k must be a good guess here.) And like the FS100/F3, maybe sharing the same sensor? Maybe even more than two versions?

If that's anywhere near the truth, a lot of indies may be very interested in something comparable to a FS100 in terms of features and price - but with a better codec, such as to save the expense, hassle of a separate recorder. That's why I remain more optimistic than Jon...... We'll see.

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

If it's used to make money, then it's a business expense. If it's not used for that purpose, then it's a luxury item.

There are gray areas:
1) The camera that was purchased to make money, but never did, and
2) The camera that is purchased and used by a business that never makes a dime directly, but is actively used for promotional projects that support overall goals.

My personal camera (5D2) is a luxury item in that I never expected to make money with it.

The 5D2 at work is item #2. It adds value to the business, but was never intended to generate invoices directly.

[Don Miller]

Remember NAB 2008?

"Today at NAB, Red Digital Cinema showcased the long-awaited Scarlet, a compact model capable of shooting 3K video for under $3,000. Film and video enthusiasts flooded the show floor, clawing to catch a glimpse of the Scarlet's rectangular upright body and unconventional architecture. The Scarlet is equipped with a new 2/3-inch Mysterium sensor and supports 1-120fps with a 180fps burst mode. The Scarlet can capture video up to 100Mbps in REDCODE Raw format and RGB recording to dual compact flash. "

[Ronald Jackson]

Hope it's not going to be like lots of things in life: "Anticipation Is Better Than Realisation".

Ron

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Don Miller

Remember NAB 2008?

The Scarlet will be a some what different animal to the proposal floated there, but from what RED have been saying the basic core remains within a camera which is now being described as a professional product.

[Jonathan Palfrey]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

I tend to see things in these price ranges. (Your names for the ranges may vary.):
< 1,000 = consumer - 60D, HV40
1,000 - 3,000 = budget prosumer - 7D, many small 1/3" cams
3,000 - 5,000 = prosumer - 5D2 (with some accessories), mid-sized 1/3" cams
5,000 - 10,000 = budget professional - 1D X, AF100, FS100, EX1, EX3...
> 10,000 - professional
> 17,000 - studio (As I recall, the RED ONE is $17k. This is the cheapest S35 without aliasing, right?)

.

I agree with Jon, these are often the sort of price differences that separate each sort of camera and their target market. I hope Canon do release a "budget professional" 5-10k camera as this is where most of the interested market are. There are many, like myself, looking to upgrade from DSLRs would be odd if Canon just give away that entire "DSLR upgrade market" to its competitors.

No matter how good the Canon or the Scarlet camera for that matter is, I will not be going out of this budget range to purchase the camera as it wont be worth it for what I require. The FS100 is so good value for money but with a few small improvements coming from a canon DSLR owner perspective, better codec, nd filters & ef mount it could be perfect and I'm hoping that's what canon offer.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

For the past ten years, I have maintained that a camera (camcorder) is one of only two things:

Either it's business expense,

Or it's a luxury item.

If it's used to make money, then it's a business expense. If it's not used for that purpose, then it's a luxury item.

I have to disagree with this one, Chris. While there are many of us at DVinfo who are not making money with our cameras, and don't consider ourselves in business, most of us don't acquire our gear as a luxury. Rather we are driven an insatiable desire to just make films. To us, gear is something we need to get jollies- to get our fix, so to speak. It becomes a necessity. We love the idea of shooting a prefect scene and hear our audience of one or two, ooh and ahh at a shot. And, I have always maintained that it is the hundreds of thousands of us out here doing this, that manage to keep prices down and develoment going on gear for the professionals who use it for their livelihood. I think nothing has made this clearer than the DSLR revolution.