Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

Jim Martin · October 24th, 2011, 06:48 PM

Right about at this time in 10 days, we'll know whats cookin' with Canon.....!!!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Emmanuel Plakiotis · October 25th, 2011, 01:07 AM

We wont get an F65 for 15K but we definetely getting something better than F3. Maybe with a future upgrade towards high end.
More than anything I wish EOS Mount video lenses. That can change the game in favor of Canon in many ways.

Henry Coll · October 25th, 2011, 05:07 AM

What I don't understand is why so many people are obsessed with EOS lenses and expect the camera to be priced under $6k.
EOS lenses are useless for video. They're unsuitable for rack focus, breathe like mad, don't have consistent T stops (just compare an F2.8 Lens to another focal F2.8 Lens), are of different lenght and diameter and they move as they focus, etc etc. It's nice to have them for an occasional shot with fixed focus, specially at the long end, but that's it.

As for the price, with the 1Dx at $7k you can't expect an S35 videocam to cost less. They might release, sooner or later, a 5D3 for $2-4k, but not a videocam for that amount.

If anything the 5D2 has teached to those less experienced with video, it that the entire shooting rig is EXPENSIVE. Regardless the camera body you'll need: a decent set of lenses, as Zeiss ZFs on the lower end at the very least; Baseplate with rods, Mattebox, FF, good ND filters set and a shoulder mount; an EVF and a bigger monitor with waveform and vectorscope; a tripod with a good head costs no less than $5k; a SoundDevices recorder with a 416, Schoeps, lavalier and radio transmitters; plenty of batteries of all sorts; some basic grip set and slider and dolly; a basic set of lights with both Arrilites, Fresnels, Kinos and Dedos (not to mention HMI for daylight); etc, etc.

This means at the most basic intro level we're talking at no less than $30k besides the camera. To this you have to add the Post suite, which is another matter onto itself.

If you just have $2-6K for a camera body, you're still $50k short for everything else you'll definetely require. Film-style shooting -the kind all 5D2 people do- is not like ENG.

Lawrence Bansbach · October 25th, 2011, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Coll

As for the price, with the 1Dx at $7k you can't expect an S35 videocam to cost less. They might release, sooner or later, a 5D3 for $2-4k, but not a videocam for that amount.

Why not? The Sony VG20 costs about $2K. The difference between the VG20 and the FS100 is $4K. I suspect that most of that can be accounted for by marketing rather than differences in technology or manufacturing costs. The FS100 doesn't even have a filter wheel or HD-SDI, and it's only 8-bit.

Don Miller · October 25th, 2011, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Coll

If you just have $2-6K for a camera body, you're still $50k short for everything else you'll definetely require. Film-style shooting -the kind all 5D2 people do- is not like ENG.

I think you've missed one of the main lessons of the DSLR video "revolution" entirely. It allows talented people to trade time for money and NOT spend $50K while achieving a cinematic look.
A regular working pro valuing his time is foolish to not make a significant investent, either directly or rental. But vast numbers of talented people can not make that investment in their own work.

Henry Coll · October 25th, 2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Miller

I think you've missed one of the main lessons of the DSLR video "revolution" entirely. It allows talented people to trade time for money and NOT spend $50K while achieving a cinematic look.

That is if your target is YouTube for your school mates.

But if you want to produce a basic but decent, sellable product (even if it's just once every 6 months to a local corporation/school..), are you going to depend on available light only? Won't you have a RAID5 for production and a RAID1 for backup? Won't you have a pro monitor+WF to check whether you're clipping 709 levels? Won't you get a decent head for drift-free pans? etc, etc.

Brian Drysdale · October 25th, 2011, 09:14 AM

Many top pros don't own any camera gear, they're hired because of their skills or they just hire in the gear themselves because there just are too many different formats these days.. Of course, other's do own gear, it really depends on their market.

You could have a filter wheel inside the FS 100, but the difference would a larger camera, which mightn't suit those people who have got used to a DSLR shooting style.

I'm not sure if the marketing costs for the FS100 are any different to the VG20, they could even be less, although it's possible the profit margin might be a bit higher because they believe there's a smaller market, but it's more demanding, so the support costs are higher.

Henry Coll · October 25th, 2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

Many top pros don't own any camera gear.

Exactly, and they don't even have to be top pros to rent.

One of the things that the 5D2 did, due to its very low cost, is to make people think you had to OWN everything to produce a video, and that's never been the case, except for independent ENG guys.

That's why I keep saying Canon's announcement 'might' not be that important, once we got cameras like the F3 with S-Log at such a low price (price being Canon's main weapon).

The F3 costs 250/day to rent, times three for a week. A fully equipped F3 (with S-Log, KiPro, CP.2s set, ARRI MateBox+FF, Sachtler 18, EVF, 17" Panasonic), costs no more than 700-750/day (x3 for a week).
Given that pretty much all First-Class Commercials, Music videos and many corporate videos are shot in a single day, $/€750 is all you need to rent the equipment required for a full Film-Style HD Broadcast shooting nowadays (!). Add another 250 for a grip set with some Kinos and ARRIlites and you get ALL the required tools for just 1k(!).

To have a cheaper camera to own will only be of advantage for docus, where you get a simple crew of 2 guys running around all over the place/planet for a month or two. That's where owning might make more sense than renting.

Jim Martin · October 25th, 2011, 10:43 AM

If a camera is coming, its time to guess the name! Back when the XF100 &105 were announced, we posters here at DVinfo started guessing the name of the next camera.....we had the XF300/305 then the 100/105 and I think some people thought that there might be a XF200 or 205 coming....I went the other way and said XF500....some said if it was a "cinema style" camera, maybe it would be a XF35.....but I thought that was too close to the Sony F35....so, lets start this up again! Anyone care to guess? If the rumors are true in regards to 2 cameras, I'm gonna go with XF500EF & XF505PL.....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Peer Landa · October 25th, 2011, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

If a camera is coming, its time to guess the name! [...] If the rumors are true in regards to 2 cameras, I'm gonna go with XF500EF & XF505PL.....

If it's the next generation of 5D2, I'm guessing it will be called 5DX.
If it's a high-end (fullframe) video camera, I'm going with something like FFX-55PL & FFX-55EF.

-- peer

Robert Sanders · October 25th, 2011, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

Right about at this time in 10 days, we'll know whats cookin' with Canon.....!!!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

I'm going to swing by the lot that weekend and visit the exhibit. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Emmanuel Plakiotis · October 25th, 2011, 12:35 PM

Henry,

In my opinion expensive cameras should be rented. Cheap cameras should be acquired. If for nothing else, ownership gives you the time to learn the camera adequately and fully utilize its potential. And in my opinion F3 is not an expensive camera. Especially if you can recoup your investment with 60 days of shooting. That can be attained in less than a year and definitely within the 3 year lifespan of today's gear.

Also not all people need to spend 15-20K for extras. All you need is a good tripod. Back in NYU I was shooting B/W reversal on arri with a turret, a tripod and a light meter. Today's HD gear makes no difference. I have learn to trust my DP and my self. Just like the old A/B roll editing motto: "Tough guys don't preview". I never understood all these Frankenstein cameras people are parading in the forum. It defeats the purpose of compactness and speed. That's why I wish the new Canon have a decent compression and a good viewfinder, more than anything else.

Ken Hull · October 25th, 2011, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

If a camera is coming, its time to guess the name!.....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Introducing (drum roll).... the Canovision Canoflex 35
(with all the most desirable features like rackover, 4 lens turret, 1000 ft coaxial mags, TTL metering, and a mere 200 lbs total weight.)
I'm reaching for my credit card now!

Ken

Jim Martin · October 25th, 2011, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Sanders

I'm going to swing by the lot that weekend and visit the exhibit. Looking forward to seeing you there.

It will good to see you again!.....

Robert Sanders · October 25th, 2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

If a camera is coming, its time to guess the name! Back when the XF100 &105 were announced, we posters here at DVinfo started guessing the name of the next camera.....we had the XF300/305 then the 100/105 and I think some people thought that there might be a XF200 or 205 coming....I went the other way and said XF500....some said if it was a "cinema style" camera, maybe it would be a XF35.....but I thought that was too close to the Sony F35....so, lets start this up again! Anyone care to guess? If the rumors are true in regards to 2 cameras, I'm gonna go with XF500EF & XF505PL.....

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Naming schemes are NOT Canon's strong suit. ;) XF is probably dedicated to their prosumer line. If they're making a line of cameras outside that target, then they'll probably develop a brand new nomenclature. Without knowing any particulars wrt the cameras, it's hard to predict.

If it is a full frame camera then maybe the use of a "C" to denote "cinema"....

C35-EF and C35-PL
or
C35 and C35A

October 24th, 2011, 06:48 PM	#316
Jim Martin Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Burbank, CA 91502 Posts: 949	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... Right about at this time in 10 days, we'll know whats cookin' with Canon.....!!! Jim Martin Filmtools.com

October 25th, 2011, 01:07 AM	#317
Emmanuel Plakiotis Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 344	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... We wont get an F65 for 15K but we definetely getting something better than F3. Maybe with a future upgrade towards high end. More than anything I wish EOS Mount video lenses. That can change the game in favor of Canon in many ways.

October 25th, 2011, 05:07 AM	#318
Henry Coll Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: germany, spain Posts: 66	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... What I don't understand is why so many people are obsessed with EOS lenses and expect the camera to be priced under $6k. EOS lenses are useless for video. They're unsuitable for rack focus, breathe like mad, don't have consistent T stops (just compare an F2.8 Lens to another focal F2.8 Lens), are of different lenght and diameter and they move as they focus, etc etc. It's nice to have them for an occasional shot with fixed focus, specially at the long end, but that's it. As for the price, with the 1Dx at $7k you can't expect an S35 videocam to cost less. They might release, sooner or later, a 5D3 for $2-4k, but not a videocam for that amount. If anything the 5D2 has teached to those less experienced with video, it that the entire shooting rig is EXPENSIVE. Regardless the camera body you'll need: a decent set of lenses, as Zeiss ZFs on the lower end at the very least; Baseplate with rods, Mattebox, FF, good ND filters set and a shoulder mount; an EVF and a bigger monitor with waveform and vectorscope; a tripod with a good head costs no less than $5k; a SoundDevices recorder with a 416, Schoeps, lavalier and radio transmitters; plenty of batteries of all sorts; some basic grip set and slider and dolly; a basic set of lights with both Arrilites, Fresnels, Kinos and Dedos (not to mention HMI for daylight); etc, etc. This means at the most basic intro level we're talking at no less than $30k besides the camera. To this you have to add the Post suite, which is another matter onto itself. If you just have $2-6K for a camera body, you're still $50k short for everything else you'll definetely require. Film-style shooting -the kind all 5D2 people do- is not like ENG.

October 25th, 2011, 09:14 AM	#322
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... Many top pros don't own any camera gear, they're hired because of their skills or they just hire in the gear themselves because there just are too many different formats these days.. Of course, other's do own gear, it really depends on their market. You could have a filter wheel inside the FS 100, but the difference would a larger camera, which mightn't suit those people who have got used to a DSLR shooting style. I'm not sure if the marketing costs for the FS100 are any different to the VG20, they could even be less, although it's possible the profit margin might be a bit higher because they believe there's a smaller market, but it's more demanding, so the support costs are higher.

October 25th, 2011, 10:43 AM	#324
Jim Martin Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Burbank, CA 91502 Posts: 949	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... If a camera is coming, its time to guess the name! Back when the XF100 &105 were announced, we posters here at DVinfo started guessing the name of the next camera.....we had the XF300/305 then the 100/105 and I think some people thought that there might be a XF200 or 205 coming....I went the other way and said XF500....some said if it was a "cinema style" camera, maybe it would be a XF35.....but I thought that was too close to the Sony F35....so, lets start this up again! Anyone care to guess? If the rumors are true in regards to 2 cameras, I'm gonna go with XF500EF & XF505PL..... Jim Martin Filmtools.com

October 25th, 2011, 12:35 PM	#327
Emmanuel Plakiotis Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 344	Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd... Henry, In my opinion expensive cameras should be rented. Cheap cameras should be acquired. If for nothing else, ownership gives you the time to learn the camera adequately and fully utilize its potential. And in my opinion F3 is not an expensive camera. Especially if you can recoup your investment with 60 days of shooting. That can be attained in less than a year and definitely within the 3 year lifespan of today's gear. Also not all people need to spend 15-20K for extras. All you need is a good tripod. Back in NYU I was shooting B/W reversal on arri with a turret, a tripod and a light meter. Today's HD gear makes no difference. I have learn to trust my DP and my self. Just like the old A/B roll editing motto: "Tough guys don't preview". I never understood all these Frankenstein cameras people are parading in the forum. It defeats the purpose of compactness and speed. That's why I wish the new Canon have a decent compression and a good viewfinder, more than anything else.