Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...

[Dan Keaton]

Dear Jon,

We will implement, in our Gemini 4:4:4, the ability to record full uncompressed 10-Bit, S-Log or other Log, to one SSD while simultaneously recording to a second SSD with a Grading LUT applied.

The goal is to allow post to have the native S-Log, plus a copy with the grading LUT applied so that they can have an idea what was intended.

Of couse, we will allow, in the future for user loadable and possibly, user programmable, LUTs to be used for the grading LUT.

And the Gemini 4:4:4 will allow one to select a viewing LUT or not. We will have the ability, in future firmware releases, to select or not a viewing LUT for the LCD and each of the HD-SDI and HDMI outputs.

Our intial firmware release will not have all of these features, but we will have these as soon as possible.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Dan Keaton

We will implement, in our Gemini 4:4:4, the ability to record full uncompressed 10-Bit, S-Log or other Log, to one SSD while simultaneously recording to a second SSD with a Grading LUT applied.

It may be worth emphasing that this is only valid if the camera supports it? In other words, you couldn't make proper use of it with a camera that "only" had a straightforward HD-SDI output. (Even if that was 10 bit.)

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

While this is true, 8-bit HDCAM - or 8-bit DSLR - doesn't give the latitude and bit resolution needed to allow us to push things to their creative limits. And while the goal is to expose properly, in high contrast environments, this is subjective. Do you expose for highlights or shadows? You can't have both. And, if the contrast is low enough to capture the extremes, you lose nuance in the mid- skin tones.

The whole process is subjective, you have to embrace the limitations. The final display may be 6 bits or if you're lucky 8 bits and the final image will be have a lower dynamic range than the camera. On video you usually expose for the highlights, the creative part can be deciding how much highlight burn out you use. The curve used the camera will influence the decision, also if you're going to do much grading in post. Nailing it pretty much in the camera is the way to go with 8 bit for the best results and a lot of the fun.

I wouldn't compare a highly compressed 8 bit recording with a lightly compressed 8 bit recording. DSLRs are limited in what you can do with the exposure adjustments in post anyway, you don't want to be bringing up the noise in the shadows.

[Dan Keaton]

Dear David,

The Gemini 4:4:4 can record S-Log only if the camera can output S-Log.

If the camera outputs Rec. 709, we can record that also, or any other normal flavor of HD-SDI.

Single Link HD-SDI, Dual Link HD-SDI and in a future firmware release HD-SDI 3G.

The Gemini 4:4:4 supports 4:2:2 as well as 4:4:4 cameras.

It is proper to note that S-Log or other Log footage has to be generated in the camera, not in the Gemini 4:4:4.

Also, we plan to fully support ARRIRAW next year.

[Bob Willis]

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

See, See, Canon is taking over Hollywood & buying Paramount & RED!!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

or the other way......

I like the way Red Canon rolls off the tongue.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

My son recently did the post work on a music video with content from two different DPs. It was daylight DSLR content shot before CineStyle was available. Sure enough, one DP exposed high, the other low. Neither was "wrong", but it made things tough in post, even for a fairly conservative grade. In essence, 8-bits is "brittle".
.............

True. By requesting "more bits", I'm really asking for a more gradable, less brittle output. Whether this is 14-bits linear, 12-bits S-log, or whatever is up to the manufacturer.

Jon - fundamentally, I agree with pretty much everything you say. I just think you're putting the emphasis in the wrong place. It's not the bitdepth that's primarily important, rather what lies behind it. (S-log, RAW, or whatever.) Yes, they need a bitdepth greater than 8 to be realistic - but that's what follows on - not what's most important.

I suspect you are well aware of that in principle, but other people may not be, and get the wrong message from the talk of bitdepth. What really needs to be got across is that simply recording a 10 bit video signal isn't necessarily much advantage over 8 bit. It's when used in conjunction with something like S-log it really gives the benefit.

Of course, even with something like you describe (default look up table) the downside may still be far greater rendering. Hence why I'd like to see the option in any future camera of an either/or approach. Either processed video (to something like XDCAM422) OR something like RAW. Or maybe even both recorded at the same time......

[Jon Fairhurst]

Originally Posted by David Heath

Jon - fundamentally, I agree with pretty much everything you say. I just think you're putting the emphasis in the wrong place. It's not the bitdepth that's primarily important, rather what lies behind it. (S-log, RAW, or whatever.) Yes, they need a bitdepth greater than 8 to be realistic - but that's what follows on - not what's most important.

It's really both (bit depth and curve) isn't it? A relatively flat curve with subtle knees at the ends is ideal for capturing a high contrast image, but the bits that you give to the extremes are donated by the mid-tones. On the other hand, more bits can help smooth out a shallow gradient like on a mid-gray balloon, but will do little at the extremes is the s-curve is too strong. For instance, with the 5D2, I really like the CineStyle curve for high-contrast scenes, but I go back to Natural for lower contrast stuff where skin tones are critical.

We really want both, don't we? A nice curve and enough bits lets us capture a wide range as well as subtle textures and smooth gradients. And add really high compression quality to the ask. Lots of bits and the perfect curve do no good if the image is reduced to a bunch of large monotone boxes. :)

@Dan Keaton... The Gemini 4:4:4 solution sounds really nice (assuming that the camera can feed it.) It solves the problem David mentioned about sometimes wanting gradable material and sometimes wanting the fastest possible render and delivery. Having a record of the on-set grade answers some comments I heard from DPs at NAB: Digital makes it easier to fix things in post, but it can also undo the creative intent of the DP. By locking the on-set grade (and providing a safety recording), the DP can re-assert some authority.

[Peter Moretti]

Originally Posted by David Heath

Well - I speculated much earlier in this thread that whilst I don't see either Red or Canon buying the other one out, there remains the possibility of a joint venture in a single area. I still haven't seen a single informed comment which categorically rules that out.
...

I ceratainly understand the line of reasoning to your speculation, but I think as of 10:06 yesterday, Jim Jannard just categorically ruled it out.

"...
Canon on the red carpet in Hollywood and RED from the garage. Head to head.

Jim"

[Allan Black]

Yep I'd hate to be trying to sell high end video cameras right now. The area of the industry has likely gone stone cold.

Cheers.

[Mikko Topponen]

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Neither was "wrong", but it made things tough in post, even for a fairly conservative grade. In essence, 8-bits is "brittle".

You can expose RED improperly too and get bad results even with that. Nothing can really help if one dp exposes wrongly. We finished a big commercial a month ago where the first shot was shot way too dark with the RED. End result was huge amounts of noise.

[Tim Polster]

It is getting kind of thick!... Really, what is going to shatter the earth? We are going to get news of products that might give more for less money than in the past. Canon better have some good stuff or they risk look like fools imho. At least RED can release their 4-years delayed Scarlet. Oh how pessimistic I have become!

[Dylan Couper]

Originally Posted by Peter Moretti

Everything after the F900 has been unncecessary :) ;).

Best post in this thread. Thanks for the laughs Peter!

[Chris Medico]

I think we now know its not likely to be a dSLR camera right?

[Jon Fairhurst]

It's pretty clear that

1) yesterday we got the news about the 1D X (shipping in March) to set initial expectations,
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...lr-camera.html

2) on the 26th, we will learn more about consumer products, including EOS cameras, and

3) on the 3rd, we will learn what's up in digital cinema.

Something for everybody! :)

[Jim Martin]

Less than 2 weeks to go!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com