Burning BD-5/9 discs plays on BD and PS3

[Tom Roper]

I'm glad it worked out Larry!

I have a pretty fair HD DVD collection of home authored HDV titles as well. And I also have EVOdemux, and in most cases still have the pre-authored source files on hard drive. But that said, copying all those titles onto the BD format may not need to be an urgent priority. It isn't for me. I still have the HD DVD player hooked up next to the PS3. Those HD DVD disks in my collection aren't going away. The format is dead but the disks still play! I still have a few purchased HD DVD titles in unopened packages. I still plan to enjoy them, American Gangsters, Bourne Ultimatum. <--And actually I have not cheated, I have NOT seen them even though they've been on the dish. I'm looking forward to it.

[Steve Mullen]

FYI:

Ok, I have the solution. This is all down to the way most applications burn BDMV, and how the PS3 interprets the spec.

The BDMV format is currently burned by authoring programs with the 'safe' assumption that you won't want copies to be made of your disc. This isn't anything to do with AACS, something altogether simpler and frankly annoying. In the transport stream (the container format that transports your MPEG-2, AVC or VC1 data) there are various bit flags. Two of these are the CPI bits, standing for Copy Protection Indicator. HD Authoring programs, with the exception of Roxio DVDit Pro, are setting these on by default.

When a Playstation3's firmware sees these bits set on a BD-RE, the stream is assumed to contain copyright material, which according to the BDA spec shouldn't be allowed onto a BD-RE, so it refuses to play the stream. I haven't tried this with a BD-R.

The solution? Bill Foote has written a utility to parse an MPEG-2 transport stream and clear these bits. Its called cpistrip and is available from the file repository of the java.net BD-J Forum.

[Larry Horwitz]

Excellent explanation Steve which makes sense. Would this also apply to red laser disks or strictly BD?

[Bruce Spell]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

I could not resist the temptation to see if removing the CERTIFICATES folder from the Sony-produced red laser disks from Vegas and DVD Architect 5 would then allow them to play on the PS3.

By first burning the Sony Vegas and DVDA disks, then ripping them, and then burning them again without the CERTIFICATES folder, I learned that they are still considered "Data Disks" just as they were originally. The only way to play them is to navigate to the STREAMS folder and then play the single .m2ts file. Obviously this is of no value whatsoever, since the original non-authored clip could be played directly on the PS3 without creating this peculiar red laser disk and going through the additional steps.

There apparently is some other file change within the BDMV folder which the Playstation uses to determine eligibility for playback.

It remains unanswered WTF Sony is thinking by doing this.........

Larry

Larry,

I don't know if this will help solve the puzzle or not but I looked at two HD discs created on red laser media. The first was from Sony's Picture Motion Browser (PMB) which is identified as AVCHD. The second was a BD on DVD created by Sony Vegas (from the timeline). The disc structure varied substantially. Here's what I saw:



Of course both discs were written in UDF 2.5 format.

Bruce

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

Excellent explanation Steve which makes sense. Would this also apply to red laser disks or strictly BD?

Since the flags are set BEFORE the encoder knows what media it is burning to -- I think it applies to BD-R, BD-RE, and red-laser. Any time BDMV is created. This message was about BD-RE, but you were creating a red-laser disc. Correct?

Did they play on other BD players?

=================

Remember my post that Warner wanted the BD-5/BD-9 included in the BD spec. Well I just read that BD-5/BD-9 was intended ONLY for BD-ROM -- which makes perfect sense! Movies distributed cheaply.

So, I was correct they ARE valid formats and Larry was correct that they seemed not to work on red-laser disks. And, BD-5/BD-9 doesn't work with BD-R and BD-RE either. If all this is correct, then tricking players to play BD-5/BD-9 is NOT a good idea. The PS-3 is correct to reject a red-laser disc that isn't AVCHD.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Bruce Spell

The second was a BD on DVD created by Sony Vegas (from the timeline). The disc structure varied substantially.

Actually, if you move the BD's BDMV folder to the root, the structures are the same AS FAR AS THE A/V STUFF. The BD has extra stuff to support extra BD-only features, e.g., JAR for BD-JAVA.

The difference seems to be in the TS Headers.

[Bruce Spell]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Actually, if you move the BD's BDMV folder to the root, the structures are the same AS FAR AS THE A/V STUFF. The BD has extra stuff to support extra BD-only features, e.g., JAR for BD-JAVA.

Steve,

Sorry if my diagram wasn't clear enough. Actually the [BDMV] folder IS in the root on both discs. Just that the BD on DVD also had the [CERTIFICATE] folder in the root and all the additional BD stuff in the [BDMV] folder.

I have not explored/examined the header info on the discs to compare. You are probably right about that (although my Sony BDS301 blu-ray set top player identifies both of these discs as 'AVCHD' media). I do know that the Sony PMB s/w will play the true AVCHD disc but will not play the BD on DVD disc. Nero Showtime also plays the AVCHD disc but tells me I'm missing the HD plug-in when I attempt to play the BD on DVD disc.

I have not tried to rip the BD on DVD disc back to hard drive and modify the structure to match the AVCHD disc and re-burn. Not sure if I have the right tools to do that...

Bruce

[Larry Horwitz]

Bruce,
You should be able to open and see the red laser DVD and drag the BDMV and Certificate folder from the DVD back to your desktop where you can alter them. Programs like ImgBurn and Nero will allow you then to burn a new UDF 2.5 disk if you own either of these programs.

Larry

[Bruce Spell]

Larry,

You are, of course, correct. I hadn't even thought of doing such a simple 'rip', lol. I do have Nero and know it will burn a UDF 2.5 disc so no worries there. Tonight I'll try your suggestion and see what happens. I can't test the PS3 side of things since I don't have one (sob, sob).

Bruce

[Steve Mullen]

What is a BD9 disc?

A BD9 is a prerecorded DVD-ROM disc designed for playback in BD players that contains audio and video authored in the same format employed in commercial BD-ROM movies (BD-ROM AV). BD9 is part of the official BD family and defined in the BD-ROM basic format (part 1), file system (part 2) and AV (part 3) specifications.

Physically, a BD9 is simply a 12 cm DVD-ROM disc with standard 4.7 GB (single-layer) or 8.5 GB (dual-layer) capacities but is fabricated to somewhat tighter specification for dynamic imbalance. It is also spun at three times the normal speed of a DVD resulting in a proportionally higher data transfer rate (33.24 Mbps vs. 11.08 Mbps).

In terms of its logical and application formats, BD9 employs the same file system (UDF 2.5), content protection (AACS, BD+, ROM Mark) and structure (BD-ROM AV HDMV/BD-J) used by commercial BD-ROM movies. As such BD9 offers identical features to BD-ROM although there are some restrictions arising from its somewhat lower performance (33.24 Mbps vs. 53.948 Mbps).

BD9 is intended to leverage existing DVD manufacturing infrastructure in order to potentially provide a lower cost vehicle for publishing budget and lesser quality high definition titles, short studio and independent movies and presentations, television shows, music albums as well as bonus content. However, given its lower capacity and the expectation of rapidly declining BD-ROM production costs, BD9 (like its HD DVD 3x-speed DVD-ROM counterpart) is not widely promoted and may remain a seldom-used curiosity. As of Mar. 2007, no BD9 titles have yet been announced.


Note the requirement for different media to support a higher spin rate needed to get high data rates.

I think this thread is "over" because clearly we can't produce BD-ROM's ourselves. Sad as this is -- and yet another reminder of how much better HD DVD was than is BD -- we have learned a lot.

[Larry Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

I'm glad it worked out Larry!

I have a pretty fair HD DVD collection of home authored HDV titles as well. And I also have EVOdemux, and in most cases still have the pre-authored source files on hard drive. But that said, copying all those titles onto the BD format may not need to be an urgent priority. It isn't for me. I still have the HD DVD player hooked up next to the PS3. Those HD DVD disks in my collection aren't going away. The format is dead but the disks still play! I still have a few purchased HD DVD titles in unopened packages. I still plan to enjoy them, American Gangsters, Bourne Ultimatum. <--And actually I have not cheated, I have NOT seen them even though they've been on the dish. I'm looking forward to it.

Thanks again Tom. Even though I have (3) HD DVD players here as well, I feel compelled to migrate my collection over to the prevailing "new" format. I have a vast library of home video and photo materials which I started in the 1960s, at first using a 1/2" open-reel Sony EIAJ video recorder and black and white video camera, and as I moved on to Beta, VHS, BETACAM, 8 mm, Hi-8, DV, HDV, AVCHD, and all the associated still photographs with film and digital cameras, I have always kept my collection in the latest format. Now that I have pictures of grandchildren, children, and several prior generations of my family, I want to make a set which can be veiwed in the future with as little obsolte format as possible. My methods have survived the last 40+ years of my videography very well, although some of the earlier material has suffered from "generation loss" for sure. I loved HD DVD and was very sad to see it disappear, and also have a stack of a dozen or more unopened HD DVD disks which came with these players as they were being discontinued.

Only 1, my all-time favorite, The Big Lebowski, gets played over and over and over..........

So I really did need / want to find a compatible and high quality red laser solution, so this is where my interest springs from.

Again, many thanks,

Larry

[Tom Roper]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

FYI:

Ok, I have the solution. This is all down to the way most applications burn BDMV, and how the PS3 interprets the spec.

The BDMV format is currently burned by authoring programs with the 'safe' assumption that you won't want copies to be made of your disc. This isn't anything to do with AACS, something altogether simpler and frankly annoying. In the transport stream (the container format that transports your MPEG-2, AVC or VC1 data) there are various bit flags. Two of these are the CPI bits, standing for Copy Protection Indicator. HD Authoring programs, with the exception of Roxio DVDit Pro, are setting these on by default.

When a Playstation3's firmware sees these bits set on a BD-RE, the stream is assumed to contain copyright material, which according to the BDA spec shouldn't be allowed onto a BD-RE, so it refuses to play the stream. I haven't tried this with a BD-R.

The solution? Bill Foote has written a utility to parse an MPEG-2 transport stream and clear these bits. Its called cpistrip and is available from the file repository of the java.net BD-J Forum.

Actually a lame protection method if that's really the intention because the video stream itself will still play if you navigate to the folder. At best, it's a not so robust protection for the far more important menuing content ;)

(cpistrip is impossible to find)

[Bruce Spell]

Well, last night I tried a short experiment to see what would happen if I took a BDMV on red laser media created by Sony Vegas/DVD Architect and modified the directory structure to match that created by Sony's Picture Motion Browser software which came with my AVCHD camera.

After updating the directory structure (removing the [CERTIFICATE] folder from the root and the BD specific folders from [BDMV]) I burned the modified structure to another DVD using Nero burning ROM as UDF 2.5. I then tried to see if the AVCHD player that came with PMB would recognize the 'hybrid' disc. No luck. It still errored with a message that the disc was not the correct type. The Sony BDP-S301 set top player now identified this disc as 'BD-ROM' and played it exactly the same as the original Vegas/DVD Architect disc which it identified as 'AVCHD'.

Maybe a not so useful experiment but I just had to know....

Bruce

[Larry Horwitz]

If only it were so simple....... (-8

Some other research on the subject:

BD structure edit [Archive] - Doom9's Forum

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Actually a lame protection method if that's really the intention because the video stream itself will still play if you navigate to the folder. At best, it's a not so robust protection for the far more important menuing content ;)

(cpistrip is impossible to find)

It's available as Java source code that you need to compile.

These bits are part of the MPEG-2 Transport Stream -- you can see them in Apple's Compressor. BDMV uses MPEG-2 Transport Stream to carry any of the BD three codecs. The real copy protection is done by ACCS. So, these bits are automatically set to match the purpose of the disc as seen by Warner which is Hollywood movies.

This thread was started on my miss-assumption that WE could burn BD-5/BD-9 on DVD-R and DVD-RW. This was never intended to happen. And, the failures are to be expected. They should be happening. Were ACCS on the disc -- as it should be on a BD-ROM -- you couldn't play those streams.

Bottom-line -- Larry was correct.

YES, if we use a workaround that passes EACH stream through an application before burning we can make BD-5/BD-9 on DVD-R and DVD-RW. But, unless we can buy special red-laser discs which are NOT available, these discs MAY not play well as they are spun to 3X speed to support 25-35Mbps MPEG-2.

PS: Sony makes a cheap DVD burner that hardware transcodes HDV to AVCHD. This is probably the best way to move HDV to AVCHD.