Creating a DVD that displays in Hi Def on a Blu-Ray player

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

Perhaps this function may be unavailable because I am using Vista? I make this comment because all of the other Edius versions are not supported under Vista, only the Neo version I installed, and perhaps this Neo version of Edius still has some unsupported features.
Larry

I found the same problem -- also under Vista. AVCHD really needs to be part of EDIUS, not a utility.

I think we have arrived at that "we agree to disagree" point. And you might be surprised that I run into the same debate when I tell FCP users about iMovie 08. They simply refuse to believe it can do so much so FAST. And, for only $85.

There's nothing new about all this. When FCP shipped the "famous" Avid editors claimed nothing could be done with it. Now most of them use FCP.

So, I'll try Nero -- at least for home movies.

PS: We both agreed Pinnacle made "poor quality" AVCHD discs. I found the same with CyberLink. Have you found this?

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

Perhaps this function may be unavailable because I am using Vista? I make this comment because all of the other Edius versions are not supported under Vista, only the Neo version I installed, and perhaps this Neo version of Edius still has some unsupported features.

Frankly, even with your faster conversion times of a little over real-time, I would not have the slightest desire to wait an hour or more to convert my AVCHD to some other format even if this faster method worked on my Vista machine,and I clearly have no interest in waiting nearly 5 hours using the current verion of Edius as it now runs on my machine.

Larry

I run Edius on Vista 64. It's only Canopus hardware that isn't supported. The software products work just fine. It is necessary to set up the converter first before use so that the conversion parameters are set and the directory used also set.

There is a big difference in needs for a home video needing no changes other than maybe a title at the front etc and the needs of a professional/prosumer or hobby like mine that need to edit a 4 camera shoot of a event of over 2 hours in high definition shot on different cameras. I always have to colour balance some of the cameras. For the tape based HDV the capture is realtime, for the AVCHD its about the same ( advantage is I don't have the problem of tape changing and it mixes well with the FX1's used).

As I have said, anyone buying a Sony AVCHD doesn't really need to buy anything else to produce SD DVD's or AVCHD DVD's as the Sony Browser software is adequate for a beginners needs. As to the large file sizes anyone used to editing HDV with Cineform or Canopus HQ is well aware of the advantages in using an intermediate file format rather than the long GOP whether that is MPEG2 or H262 based.

I do also believe that when the new range of cameras come out AVCHD will displace some of the HDV. For weddings and events not having to change tapes over a long period of time, being able to instantly review clips, have easy clip management on transfer to PC etc etc will be a big advantage. I can see that Sony will need to bring out a competitive product to the new

Panasonic, maybe a fixed lens version of the Z7 or similar and I for one will likely buy one. Bluray or hard drive backup is just fine. Cost of Bluray is really no more than long standard size DV/HDV tapes( in fact a little cheaper at the moment). I just backed up 5 hours of AVCHD on a 50G Bluray for $37. Tape equivalent( large standard tape) could not hold as long a time and is $45.

Ron Evans

[Larry Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Mircea Voinea

Well, from pure IT standing point, it's clear that it's better that the workflow should be in original format, and it's better to smartrender.
This discusion reminds me the moment when Ulead had the first NLE with smartrendering. Many Premiere users considered that it's a useless gimmick, and even Adobe doesn't bother to implement. And it also reminds me the price difference and easy of use between Premiere and Ulead...

Of course Nero has limitations (well, one funny is that it's player Showtime can't play AVCHD DVD created with Vision, but PowerDVD can), but for me to make an AVCHD DVD is the easiest way (other than copy original files to DVD). The Picture Motion Browser that came with my camera is the biggest POS (it doesn't work at all, and at FAQ it stated that if you have any other codec installed it will not work).

Mircea,

I also recall the smartrender argument coming up with HDV a few years ago for Ulead, and I felt the same way then about the benefits. Native editing just makes more sense to me when the original h.264 format is achieved by throwing away a large amount of information through an irreversible, lossy compression process.

Larry

[Larry Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I found the same problem -- also under Vista. AVCHD really needs to be part of EDIUS, not a utility.

I think we have arrived at that "we agree to disagree" point. And you might be surprised that I run into the same debate when I tell FCP users about iMovie 08. They simply refuse to believe it can do so much so FAST. And, for only $85.

There's nothing new about all this. When FCP shipped the "famous" Avid editors claimed nothing could be done with it. Now most of them use FCP.

So, I'll try Nero -- at least for home movies.

PS: We both agreed Pinnacle made "poor quality" AVCHD discs. I found the same with CyberLink. Have you found this?

Steve,

Nero is worth playing with, and demonstrates the claims of speed and quality I have been ranting about. No doubt you will (as I did) find it almost comically spartan in terms of its features, and yet I find myself using it often just to quickly get the job done.


Bad analogy, but it's like the large drill press I have in my shop here. It's a wonderful, beautifully made, very competent drill, but yet I always seem to grab and use my little hand-held battery-operated drill whenever I have a hole to drill....

My Cyberlink PowerDirector 7 experiences are mixed regarding quality. In the original and first updated releases, there was no smart rendering of AVCHD, and the finished disks really looked poor. Then in the latest Build 1915 AVCHD smart rendering was implemented, worked correctly, and made a very visible improvement in their resulting disks. Only problem is that the Build 1915, at least on my machine, has a lot of bugs, including bugs in burning disks which did not exist in prior builds. I thus have to use a different program to burn the AVCHD image since PowerDirector 7 crashes during burning.

When (and if) they figure out how to get PD7 to run properly, it will be a very nice program for the money. I dinged it heavily on the magazine website where Jan Ozer rated it as the best of the current low cost editing suites, particularly since his review was of the original release, a bug-ridden POS in my opinion.

Larry

[Kaushik Parmar]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

PS: We both agreed Pinnacle made "poor quality" AVCHD discs. I found the same with CyberLink. Have you found this?

Yes, CyberLink's PowerDirector 7 is worst if we try to produce AVCHD, means AVC.MPEG4. But I simply love PowerDirector 7, I have made some nice slideshow with it if some one is interested here is link: http://www.vimeo.com/1639491
http://www.vimeo.com/1636736

[Larry Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

I run Edius on Vista 64. It's only Canopus hardware that isn't supported. The software products work just fine. It is necessary to set up the converter first before use so that the conversion parameters are set and the directory used also set.
There is a big difference in needs for a home video needing no changes other than maybe a title at the front etc and the needs of a professional/prosumer or hobby like mine that need to edit a 4 camera shoot of a event of over 2 hours in high definition shot on different cameras. I always have to colour balance some of the cameras. For the tape based HDV the capture is realtime, for the AVCHD its about the same ( advantage is I don't have the problem of tape changing and it mixes well with the FX1's used).
As I have said, anyone buying a Sony AVCHD doesn't really need to buy anything else to produce SD DVD's or AVCHD DVD's as the Sony Browser software is adequate for a beginners needs. As to the large file sizes anyone used to editing HDV with Cineform or Canopus HQ is well aware of the advantages in using an intermediate file format rather than the long GOP whether that is MPEG2 or H262 based.
I do also believe that when the new range of cameras come out AVCHD will displace some of the HDV. For weddings and events not having to change tapes over a long period of time, being able to instantly review clips, have easy clip management on transfer to PC etc etc will be a big advantage. I can see that Sony will need to bring out a competitive product to the new Panasonic, maybe a fixed lens version of the Z7 or similar and I for one will likely buy one. Bluray or hard drive backup is just fine. Cost of Bluray is really no more than long standard size DV/HDV tapes( in fact a little cheaper at the moment). I just backed up 5 hours of AVCHD on a 50G Bluray for $37. Tape equivalent( large standard tape) could not hold as long a time and is $45.

Ron Evans

Ron,

Please elaborate as to how to set up the convertor first before use. There is no ducomentation provided in that specific topic nor is there any obvious way to adjust settings of the convertor once using it.

Only time will tell how AVCHD will truly evolve. With disk space and especially flash memory becoming so extremely cheap, it makes less sense to capture HD with cameras that struggle with motion artifacts and compression workloads demanded by AVCHD. I actually could envision a totally lossless or far less lossy eventual successor to these very highly compressed capture methods, but who really knows?

As regards BluRay versus tape, I am just plain old fashion. I have literally thousands of DVDs I've made here in various stages of rot after only a few years, some of them used brand name blanks, so I am altogether skeptical of optical storage longevity and stability. I generally prefer harddisk backups, where your 50 GB example might cost me 7 to 10 dollars versus your $37. I also hate to wait for recording, rendering, etc. (probably a sign of the retirement age I have reached (-: ) but I especially like to write my 50 GB backup in seconds rather than many minutes or even hours for a BluRay duallayer disk disk you used as an example. As the prices come down on BluRay blanks I may switch back to optical again for archiving.

Larry

[Kaushik Parmar]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

Steve,

Nero is worth playing with, and demonstrates the claims of speed and quality I have been ranting about. No doubt you will (as I did) find it almost comically spartan in terms of its features, and yet I find myself using it often just to quickly get the job done.


Bad analogy, but it's like the large drill press I have in my shop here. It's a wonderful, beautifully made, very competent drill, but yet I always seem to grab and use my little hand-held battery-operated drill whenever I have a hole to drill....

My Cyberlink PowerDirector 7 experiences are mixed regarding quality. In the original and first updated releases, there was no smart rendering of AVCHD, and the finished disks really looked poor. Then in the latest Build 1915 AVCHD smart rendering was implemented, worked correctly, and made a very visible improvement in their resulting disks. Only problem is that the Build 1915, at least on my machine, has a lot of bugs, including bugs in burning disks which did not exist in prior builds. I thus have to use a different program to burn the AVCHD image since PowerDirector 7 crashes during burning.

When (and if) they figure out how to get PD7 to run properly, it will be a very nice program for the money. I dinged it heavily on the magazine website where Jan Ozer rated it as the best of the current low cost editing suites, particularly since his review was of the original release, a bug-ridden POS in my opinion.

Larry

I am fully agreed with you Larry; your observation regarding PowerDirector 7, indeed it is great for beginner! And it is so simple to use. I was so much exited about new version PD7, but I am much disappointed with it, first of all it is same not much different, they try to give more professional look like and they succeed, now it looks better!

But it crashed so many times; even I downloaded some patches as well but no improvement.

They have added very nice features in slideshow part, full marks to CyberLink for such innovative features!

I made some slideshows with PD7 and here is link if someone is like to see: JVC GZ-HD7 slideshow on Vimeo
Philips @ IFA 2008, Berlin on Vimeo

Kaushik

[Larry Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Kaushik Parmar

Yes, CyberLink's PowerDirector 7 is worst if we try to produce AVCHD, means AVC.MPEG4. But I simply love PowerDirector 7, I have made some nice slideshow with it if some one is interested here is link: JVC GZ-HD7 slideshow on Vimeo
Philips @ IFA 2008, Berlin on Vimeo

Kaushik,

Your two movies show the very nice ability of PD7 to do many different effects and picture-in-picture, and this is probably why it got the highest rating by PC Magazine / Jan Ozer since it allows for spectacular effects. (I wish I was able to attend that Berlin show you visitied!)

AVCHD is the area where PD7 is so weak. It has not been tested and debugged properly, and the support from Cyberlink is poor. My comments and complaints were strictly as an AVCHD user. I will also mention that their earlier version PD6 was pretty poor with HDV, so I don't respect their quality at all.

The latest patcher on their website to the new build is quite an improvement in some areas, but a step back in others. This is another sign of their weak software quality. The program is still a bargain if someone knows how to work around the various issues.

Larry

[Mark Bausch]

...to the knowledgable posters in this thread. Thanks for all of your important information--I hope to be able to purchase some gear and look forward to sharing parts of my efforts with you on this board.

Please continue the dialog...we're reading and learning out here in beginner-land.

[Kaushik Parmar]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

Kaushik,

Your two movies show the very nice ability of PD7 to do many different effects and picture-in-picture, and this is probably why it got the highest rating by PC Magazine / Jan Ozer since it allows for spectacular effects. (I wish I was able to attend that Berlin show you visitied!)

AVCHD is the area where PD7 is so weak. It has not been tested and debugged properly, and the support from Cyberlink is poor. My comments and complaints were strictly as an AVCHD user. I will also mention that their earlier version PD6 was pretty poor with HDV, so I don't respect their quality at all.

The latest patcher on their website to the new build is quite an improvement in some areas, but a step back in others. This is another sign of their weak software quality. The program is still a bargain if someone knows how to work around the various issues.

Larry

Yes Larry, PD7 has some innovative features in slideshow part; it has so many options also for creating nice slideshow. And I love to watch in to big screen via projector! And other end it required much improvement in videos editing part, but I am sure CyberLink's creative team is aware about this and will come out soon with more strength!

But I really love PD7, despite of some error!

Kaushik

[Ron Evans]

Hi Larry
There should be three icons on the desktop for the converter. AVCHD2HQ, AVCHDPRV, and HQ codec setup. Under the setup its possible to set for standard or fine conversion and alter the parameters though standard is the one I use. One can also set whether the conversion is to ITU601 or from RGB ( 0-255 to IRE 0 to 100). If you drag a file over the preview icon it will play in a preview window, Opening the AVCHD2HQ will allow you to set whether the sound conversion is to 2 channel or 5.1. When you make this selection another box will open allowing you to choose the directory for the converted file. I make sure the directory for the converted file is on another hard drive from the source file, much faster. Once this is set dragging a file over the ICON will use these set parameters until you change them. The problem with defaults for Sony and Edius etc is that they are all on the boot drive and so this poor drive has to keep swapping back and for as well as manage all the access that Windows wants!!!! Don't use the boot drive for any of the video source or destination. For me a PC needs 4 drives for nice clean video performance. boot, temp and preview, and two for storage.

Ron

[Larry Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Kaushik Parmar

Yes Larry, PD7 has some innovative features in slideshow part; it has so many options also for creating nice slideshow. And I love to watch in to big screen via projector! And other end it required much improvement in videos editing part, but I am sure CyberLink's creative team is aware about this and will come out soon with more strength!

But I really love PD7, despite of some error!

Kaushik

Kaushik,

I really hope they fix the remaining bugs since most of PD7 is really very well done, and their slideshow features are excellent as your samples demonstrate.

If you have a projector connected directly to a computer and can display computer video without using mpeg / h.264 encoding, I can also recomend another very low cost slideshow program developed in Russia which makes outstanding slideshows, is very low cost, and makes either high def AVI / mpeg files, and also executable .exe files which display full photo resolution content without any mpeg / h.264 degredation. Of the dozen or more slideshow programs I have been experimenting with over the last few years, it has become one of my favorites. It is called MySlideShowGold from Anix Software. I have worked with the developer, Andrew Anoshkin, on a couple beta releases to help him debug it. If you like slideshows, you should check out the trial version. See:

MySlideShow - software for creating slide shows, photo albums, screen savers, presentations, video files, VideoCD and DVD

Best,

Larry

[Steve Mullen]

Last night I got Vegas 9 Plat up and running. Very nice for $85.

BUT

Sony seems to have designed its export options to force one to buy DVD ARCH 5.

1) AVCHD uses AC3 or stereo PCM. Sony does not support AC3! And, if you have made a 5.1 soundtrack -- a really neat feature of Vegas -- you are forced to burn a multi-channel LPCM track. Unfortunately, this track cannot be sent via SPdif to your home theater receiver as the bandwidth is way too large.

2) BD also uses AC3 or stereo PCM. Sony does not support AC3! And, if you have made a 5.1 soundtrack you are forced to burn a multi-channel LPCM track. Unfortunately, this track cannot be sent via SPdif to your home theater receiver as the bandwidth is way too large.

So you can make SD DVD with AC3, but not HD DVDs. Which makes the claims of AC3 support very misleading if you work in HD.

3) We all know that AVCHD is DVD-+R and not BD. But, the AVCHD settings are under BD, not DVD. So the co-inventor of AVCHD has an NLE that has no direct burn-to-AVCHD function! And, the main inventor of BD -- won't burn a BD with an AC3 track.

4) We also know BD supports up to 40Mbps yet Sony limits AVC to 20Mbps and MPEG-2 to 25Mbps. Why is Sony limiting our quality?

The solution -- which I posted on the Sony site -- is to buy Ulead MovieFactory which has clear choices for AVCHD and BD and HD DVD. Now you can do anything you want. And, in the past, I've found if you import a "correct" file -- it does not recompress. Although, you might want to export uncompressed from Vegas and let MF do the encoding since you have more control.

[Kaushik Parmar]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

Kaushik,

I really hope they fix the remaining bugs since most of PD7 is really very well done, and their slideshow features are excellent as your samples demonstrate.

If you have a projector connected directly to a computer and can display computer video without using mpeg / h.264 encoding, I can also recomend another very low cost slideshow program developed in Russia which makes outstanding slideshows, is very low cost, and makes either high def AVI / mpeg files, and also executable .exe files which display full photo resolution content without any mpeg / h.264 degredation. Of the dozen or more slideshow programs I have been experimenting with over the last few years, it has become one of my favorites. It is called MySlideShowGold from Anix Software. I have worked with the developer, Andrew Anoshkin, on a couple beta releases to help him debug it. If you like slideshows, you should check out the trial version. See:

MySlideShow - software for creating slide shows, photo albums, screen savers, presentations, video files, VideoCD and DVD

Best,

Larry

Larry,

I have checked "MySlideShow" software, and I would like to tell you this is nowhere near to PowerDirector 7, it is normal slideshow creator. I must say PowerDirector rules in slideshow part! As you said you liked my two clips, it came out excellent!

If you have not explore PD7' slideshow features I would recommend you to see them!

Kaushik

[Steve Mullen]

Looks like Sony is going to keep HDV alive in the Prosumer space.

The new $4000 Sony HDR-FX1000 HDV camcorder features 3 x 1/3-inch CMOS sensors. The lens is non-removable. The lens has three control rings: focus, zoom, and iris. There are also three built-in ND filters (1/4, 1/16, and 1/64). The camcorder includes a 3.2-inch LCD with a resolution of 921,000 pixels.

Wonder if they will ALSO release a non-tape $4000 camcorder using AVCHD.