Creating a DVD that displays in Hi Def on a Blu-Ray player

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Mike Burgess

I know that I have eliminated much of your quote, but it is these two items I have a question about.
1. As to the "don't even try DVD+R disks" part of your quote, I have burned AVCHD footage onto a Verbatim DVD+R and played it on a Pany BD30 player (it worked just fine). So the author never tried the Pany BD30. But apparently, I should burn only using Verbatim DVD-R from now on, right?
2. Do you recomment changing my archived AVCHD footage to Mpeg2 when I want to use Pinnacle 12? Will I lose any quality in my results?

Thanks.
Mike

Of all the first generation of BD players, the Pana was the only one that played almost everything. It was THE choice for those burning BD.

I find DVD-R EZ to find, but think DL is typically DVD+R.

I do read that Verbatim keeps being recommended. I never worried about brand until I bought a Fuji BD-RE that died after two burnings. So I bought Sony and they are working fine. So maybe brand does make a difference.

I'm not sure I understand your question about AVCHD, MPEG-2, and Studio 12.

[Mike Burgess]

Thanks Steve.

My last question was in reference to a statement that I saw in one of your posts, about changing your footage from AVCHD to MPEG 2 before editing. Was wondering what the advantage is.

Thanks again.
Mike

[Larry Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

You should go back and read Don's post. He does not own some cheap AVCHD camcorder. He owns one of the most expensive -- the SR11. He also owns Vegas 9 which although cheap, has most of the features of Vegas 8 Pro. He only wanted to know if he could burn HD without a BD burner. I supported his continued use of Vegas.

You then pointed-out that Vegas -- which he likes and already has -- doesn't add the menus YOU want. He never said he wanted menus!

I recommend he could use MF6 IF HE NEEDED MENUS. Then you went off on a rant of the evils of recompression. And, based upon this, you recommend he switch to a $60 DVD burner program that would be nothing like Vegas he already uses.

And, yes -- I went off on my own rant. His question went unanswered.

I just finished burning AVCHD on red-laser DVD-R so I can tell Don YES he can burn HD on red-laser. But, he will be limited to 18Mbps because that is the SAFE maximum supported by AVCHD. (Actually, the AVCHD Template was 16Mbps, but I increased it to the MAXIMUM allowed.)

So Don can choose to dump Vegas 9 and use Nero and burn !!Mbps red-laser discs.

Or, he can stay with Vegas 9 and burn 18Mbps AVCHD discs that have 5.1 audio and, if he wants, menus.

Steve,

The SR11 which Don owns shows up in Google from 49 dealers ranging in price from $569 to a little over a thousand dollars, with Amazon selling it for $817. How in hell you can somehow equate this to your $4000 Panasonic customer defies belief. You can buy 4, possibly 5 of Don's camera for the cost of your Panasonic.

You are, ironically, correct in calling the SR11 "one of the most expensive" since many including my Canon are now $625.

This reinforces my original opinion, that a $500 to $1000 piece of software is NOT what Don would buy, and as you correctly point out, Don bought the consumer version of Vegas 9, clearly NOT a $500 to $1000 type of NLE.

My point, as always,is that the AVCHD customer, for the most part, is looking for cheaper and simpler, rather than costly and complex.

The fact that Sony's template for AVCHD apparently is set at a 16Mbit/sec rate may force you to conclude and then report that there is some safe limit at 16 or 18 Mbits/sec which must be observed, but this is not at all true. Ironically, Sony's very own Playstation 3 and other Sony brand players handle 21 Mbit/sec rates perfectly, as do any other players I have tried.

My suggestion to Don was to consider 5 alternative programs, ranked in my order of preference, and Nero was neither my singular suggestion nor was it my first, preferred suggestion in that list. (It actually was in the middle of my list).

My exact words were that I:

"specifically suggest you consider you take a look at the trial versions of Ulead Movie Factory 6 Plus, Ulead Video Studio 11.5, Ahead Nero Vision (latest version), Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11, Cyberlink Power Director 7 Ultra (i have stated them in the order of my own preference, but all work)."


Your reply to my suggestions was to state:

"All of these can be used, but they are at the bottom of my list of editors. "

I find your dismissive reply and your subsequent personal focus on vastly inappropriate alternatives for Don to make little or no sense. How can your Macintosh software product choices or a $4000 camcorder analogy remotely improve upon your dismissive reply to my suggestions to Don???

Since we are clearly not going to agree on any of this, I will leave you return to your recompression to make your "safe" 18 Mbit/sec mpeg2 red laser disks. No doubt this recompression will take many hours to accomplish, and there may be a player in this or some other universe which is capable of playing them, but I'm sure we will eventually find out from you what player that is. I can assure you that no BD player presently has this capability.

Larry

[Mark Bausch]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

Glad to help Mike!

The Nero workflow is as follows:

1. Take the SD card from the HF100 and place it in a card reader.

2. Open the BDMV folder and you will see the STREAM folder. Transfer the STREAM folder contents intact to your hard disk. This contains a single .mts file for each clip you recorded.

3. Open Nero Vision, Choose Make DVD-->AVCHD.

4. Choose "Add Video Files", navigate to your disk-based STREAM folder, and then open / select all of the clip / .mts files at once. The clips will now appear in a list with each showing a small icon of its actual video content as a thumbnail.

5. Use Nero to re-arrange, delete, trim, and otherwise organize your clips in the normal editing process. Choose transitions, add titles, optionally apply filters for color changes, sharpening, etc. to any or all clips. Optionally import still photographs if you wish to also include a high def slideshow.

6. Go to the next step where you will select and then optionally modify animated menus. Make your choice and then make whatever changes in the menus you prefer for fonts, buttons, layouts, colors, etc.

7. Optionally preview the authored disk as if it were being played back in your AVCHD / BluRay player using the built in player.

8. Burn the AVCHD disk on a red laser disk.

The finished disk can be done for all steps 1-8 in about 7-8 minutes on my system using the fastest method (described below) but normally takes about 10-12 minutes start to finish.

The fastest method, which I do not encourage, is to skip step 2 entirely, and use Nero Vision to open and read the clips directly from the SD card reader, rather than transferring the clips to an intermediary hard disk folder. This saves the time to copy all the clips, but leaves you no backup if for some reason the card or clips get corrupted.

A direct comparison of the .mts files coming out of the burn process to those going in from the SD card will reveal, even if you heavily enlarge and crop the fine detail to examine it, that the burned image .mts files are identical in appearance to the original clips. This is also very obvious when you play them as normal HD video. Each AVCHD clip is unaltered except for your cuts / trimming, and only the re-rendered clips which had some optional filtering or superimposed titles look slightly softer.

Step 8, the burning step, will show you a message for each clip which will say "Smart Rendering - 100%" as it processes, unless you decide to change colors, sharpen, or add other modifying elements like titles on top of video. Even then, only the small area of modification will be re-rendered.

Typically step 8 on my machine takes the normal burning time for a 16X DVD-R of a little over 5 minutes. If you chose the most elaborate animated menus, they will need to be rendered and this will add a few minutes time. Only the menus and NOT your clips will be rendered in this slow manner.

The resulting disk can be played in a set-top player or viewed using Nero's other great program, Nero Show Time, which plays AVCHD, BluRay (HD DVD, standard DVD) and a lot of other formats beautifully. If you want to be very cautious with dual layer disks which now cost about a buck apiece, you can also only burn the final BDMV folder to your hard disk rather than burn it to the DL disk. You can then view it with Show Time including all the menus, and then, if you like it, burn it to the DL disk with Nero Burning ROM, another program in the same $60 suite, in about 5 minutes time.

I am pretty sure that the Nero suite is a totally free trial so you can go through the entire process start to finish without buying the software, using .mts clips you can download from the Internet. This will allow you to experience the entire process and watch the finished AVCHD disk at no risk, if you want to try it out. Be sure to enlarge the Nero workspace to full screen so that all of the controls, previews, buttons, etc.are easily seen. For some reason, they initially use small windows for their program interface which need to be be maximized to best see and use them.

Hope this helps,

Larry


BTW, you will absolutely love the XPS420 for AVCHD. It is really superb.....Don't skimp on ram or CPU. Their BluRay burner is also quite good and not too expensive, and makes true BluRay blue laser disks using Nero if you would require 1 hour or longer playing times. At 11 bucks per blank I am not yet interested...

Larry, I have saved your workflow in Word and also printed it...and will use it as soon as I get my gear.

I want to compliment you on your posts in this thread--I have found them to be extremely useful and your posts, along with some others, have hit my sweet spot as far as (1) my 'advanced beginners/intermediate' knowledge of this stuff; (2) the time that I have to spend on this sort of hobby; and (3) the money that I have to spend on this hobby.

The specificity and clarity of your posts is remarkable...I commend you on your efforts and hope that you continue to share your wisdom with those less knowledgable than yourself.

I find myself in agreement with your views of the current state of the art...and I will add a BluRay burner to my list of things to purchase when the BR media become more reasonably priced.

Thank you for your efforts.

[Larry Horwitz]

Mark,

I thank you sincerely for your very kind words. As a retired electrical engineer with a lot of time on my hands, and a tendency to be very much into the most minute technical details for most things electronic, I really enjoy helping others and also devouring the latest and greatest technology. AVCHD recently, and HDV previously, have been a great source of interest for me, and I am really delighted to be able to help someone out. I've done volunteering for "Meals on Wheels" and other things but this type of stuff is way more intellectually engaging.

I hope you ultimately enjoy your gear as much as I do mine Mark, and invite you to contact me if I can help you in the future.

Larry

[Mike Gunter]

Originally Posted by Mike Burgess

Thanks Steve.

My last question was in reference to a statement that I saw in one of your posts, about changing your footage from AVCHD to MPEG 2 before editing. Was wondering what the advantage is.

Thanks again.
Mike

Hi,

One advantage is that many of the non linear editors (NLEs) don't easily handle AVCHD as yet. Converting to MPEG2 TS (transport stream) HDV which has quickly become a HD format that is common helps that a lot.

While Vegas Pro 8 handles AVCHD well, Vegas 7 doesn't. But Vegas 7 on a older machine handles MPEG2 pretty well. Right now, Premiere CS3 doesn't do AVCHD.

TMPGEnc Xpress 4.0 ( TMPGEnc - Products: TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress Product Information ) in its latest version will batch process from AVCHD to MPEG2 very well and with excellent quality. I highly recommend it. It also will do any number of other conversions, too. It's a nice piece of software and worth the price.

[Larry Horwitz]

For the record:

I want to report my personal experience with Canopus Edius Neo, latest version, which I installed earlier today. The installation was prompted by an earlier recommendation on this thread combined with my desire to see what an expensive product such as Canopus Edius was like when handling AVCHD.


My observations are as follows:

Edius cannot directly import AVCHD files, period.....

It converts them using a separate outboard converter which is provided called AVCHD2HQ.

Each file conversion is incredible!!! The conversion file is in AVI format and is 7.5 times larger than the original AVCHD file. A simple example is that a very short clip of 142 seconds which only consumed 283 megabytes in AVCHD format resulted in an AVI file of 2.1 Gbytes in size. Thus an hour of camera clips will occupy well over 50 Gbytes on the disk.

The conversion time for this single clip was several minutes long on my ultra fast QX9650 3.0GHz quadcore. Merely converting an hour of AVCHD camera content before any editing could begin would require several hours of conversion time on my machine, even with my fast RAPTOR disks and the fastest Intel processor being made today. A laptop would be an overnight job for sure........

The timeline scrubbing and output rendering as an AVI file went very smoothly when using this transcoded AVI file. When I attempted to chose another format for output however, so as to get a useful compressed format to author an HD disk, the program crashed. I repeated this 3 times and it consistently crashed / failed in the same manner.

To my way of thinking, a program for several hundred dollars should not behave this way. The AVCHD performance and lack of support is almost comical.

Note that there is no disk authoring function included whatsoever......merely a video editing program.

My bottom line conclusion:

Is there any reason whatsoever to buy Edius, given its high cost, lack of ability to handle AVCHD without file conversions, incredibly slow conversion with huge resulting files, unstable performance (specifically an inability to change "Settings" to another render format), and absolutely no ability to author disks of any kind??

I would have to say "Absolutely NOT!"

Larry

(Maybe Dan should consider some other option........)

[Ron Evans]

There are two ways to convert the AVCHD file using the AVC2HQ converter for use in Edius ( any of the versions )or any other NLE really. If one right clicks on the file and chooses "convert to-" then the converter only uses one core and can be 2.5 to 4 times realtime. Dragging the file over the ICON on the desktop uses all cores available and will convert in much less than realtime. The read me file with the converter is quite clear on these differences. On my Q9450 I can upload an hour of AVCHD from my SR11( using Sony Motion Browser to stitch all the files together properly as my projects are almost all over 1 hour and 15 mins continuous ) and convert to HQ in just over realtime( I recently copied to PC and converted a 1 hour 8 min video in 1 hour and 17 mins). Yes the files are much larger, which is true for any conversion to HQ even from HDV and of the same order as using Cineform intermediate. The converted file is an intra frame file so does not have the problems of the inter frame files of the original GOP file to deal with for any effects etc and is much easier on CPU for editing software that can use the file( Vegas will happily use a Canopus HQ file). I backup the AVCHD file and just use the HQ file for editing then delete.
I use Edius Pro 4.6 which is very different to Neo and does include a simple DVD authoring application and in my mind the very best multicam editing application.
For my family videos using AVCHD I actually use the Sony Motion Browser software that came with the SR11. More than adequate for simple AVCHD video recorded on standard 4.7G discs with simple but adequate menus and a choice of smooth playback through each of the clips or for a faster assembly, accept the minor stop at the end of each clip ( sequential play rather than smooth play I call it!!!) In my experience Nero has this same issue. Specifying smooth playback through the clips seems to initiate a render that takes time.

Ron Evans

[Steve Mullen]

"My observations are as follows:

Edius cannot directly import AVCHD files, period....."

Of course not. None of the "pro" NLEs will natively edit AVCHD for the very simple reason that AVCHD can NOT be edited natively with a full set of real-time FX and with playback at 30fps -- on the vast majority of installed computers, in particular, laptops.

Or, put another way, these NLE companies will support native AVCHD editing ONLY when the FULL workflow currently used for other HD formats can be used on the systems these editors currently use. Many Avid and FCP editors still use G5s and they are NOT going to upgrade just because someone brings them a bit of AVCHD.

The current flock of CONSUMER camcorders is only stage 1 of AVCHD. Yes -- today it is ONLY for a consumers because none of the 24Mbps camcorders have shipped. This AVCHD thread is one of the few here that currently is oriented toward consumers. And, you are correct that many of these folks are interested in really cheap products.

Even though you didn't answer Dan's question -- could he burn HD on ordinary DVDs using Vegas 9 -- I've got no problem with your list of cheap editors. Other than the fact that you didn't point out to folks -- that at this price level -- they will NOT have the features that are in more expensive NLEs. And, I said, correctly, that the folks who are used to editing with NLEs will not likely find the experience of using these editors acceptable. This applied to Dan who already uses Vegas -- which IMHO is already a huge step below FCP or EDIUS.

But, the next stage is AVCHD PROSUMER camcorders -- with the Pana being the first. They will offer near XDCAM EX quality. This stage is where 24Mbps AVCHD moves into wedding and event videography. In other words, it becomes a format that people can use for making money. It will become the next DV/DVCAM, PRODVD, and HDV. This NEW set of AVCHD users, I believe, will be looking at ways to add 24Mbp AVCHD into their current workflow. This means they will not replace their current NLEs with a $60 editor. They will not be willing to replace their MacBook Pro or VAIO.

These folks expect that files will grow many times larger because this group already uses Uncompressed, ProRes 422, DNxHD, Canopus HQ, and CineForm CF. They understand WHY these codecs are used. They understand that storage is cheap. They are used to the long conversion times even though they don't like it. (Even though they don't NEED to convert HDV, many of them do.) They do not fear re-compression.

Their questions are not about making AVCHD discs. They want to know HOW they can burn HD media to BD and DVDs. They are asking what Don asked. How do they keep their current workflow AND how can they distribute HD media on discs and on-line.

You didn't answer his question. You gave him alternative workflows to the one he had. I answered his question. End of story.

[David Parks]

If I can just add to what Steve said above:

1. Don't be surprise if AVCHD quickly makes it to the professional world within the next year. I remember how surprised I was when NBA TV started shooting with the DVX 100. They were cheap and put out a reliable and clean 24pa image. You can talk specs all day, but if a production company can produce better images at a lower cost, then specs fall by the wayside. It is just a reality folks. I've edited test clips from Barry Green of the Pana HMC 150 against JVC 720p and Canon XHA1 images and they looked quite good if not cleaner than 720p andf 1080i HDV. There was no apparent mosquito noise in the AVCHD 24mbps like HDV. I plan on making the move as a replacement for my HD 100.

2. I have Canopus Edius 4.51 running on a brand new Gateway AMD Quad Core. The Barry Green clips pulled right into the clip bin and the convert to Canopus HQ was about 25%faster than realtime. In the end it was still faster than digitizing and I didn't have to baby sit the conversion. The process worked fine. And this isn;t even the latest version. And also, Larry it was all done via download and there was no outboard converter box used.

3. My main editor is Avid Media Composer and using the AVCHD to DVCProHD converter in the same Quad Core was realtime. In fact, it was weird watching the preview monitor on the software utility play back in full motion during the conversion. Then the clips imported instantaneously into Avid. Still faster than digitizing by a smidge.

All in all everyone has to go with what works best, but I poopooed AVCHD until I saw the clips from Barry. I have faced the fact that tape is going away and for old dogs like me I've seen a lot of change in 23 years.

PS. Steve, thanks for staying ahead of the game on all of the newest codecs and workflows. Has your article on AVCHD gone to print yet??

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Kaushik Parmar

CyberLink's new PowerDirector 7 has 5.1 features!

Kaushik, my version has the option for 5.1 EXPORT.

But, I can't find anything on:

1) Importing AC3 5.1 from the Sony SR12.

2) Surround-sound panners to move either a mono or stereo around in 2D space.

3) Creating an LFE channel.

Unless, these functions are present -- outputting 5.1 only outputs stereo in 5.1.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by David Parks

PS. Steve, thanks for staying ahead of the game on all of the newest codecs and workflows. Has your article on AVCHD gone to print yet??

It's in last month's Broadcast Engineering. This week I'm finishing one on CCD & CMOS for BE. Next, one on Smart GOP Splicing.

The Pana HDC150 looks to be a great camcorder -- if the street price is low enough. I can imagine a JVC "version" that uses three 1280x720 CMOS chips, perhaps from Sony. And, a V1 replacment from Sony. And, Canon could join the ranks. The thing to remember is AVCHD, like HDV, is a brand name. These camcorders may not all be branded "AVCHD."

[Larry Horwitz]

Steve,

I don't even slightly buy into your opinion that AVCHD will become the wedding and event photographer "prosumer" format you claim.

It is my belief that the emerging 24 Mbit/sec AVCHD camcorders will merely serve to update the presently released consumer 17-21 Mbit/sec models, which are clearly aimed at consumers, sell for about $1000 or less, and, with the sole exception of one single $4000 Panasonic model, have virtually no features which professionals demand on their camcorders for event use.

Even if such a second stage of AVCHD camcorders should ultimately arrive which are marketed and adopted for prosumer use, it is entirely obvious that the rapid improvement in computer and graphics accelerator speeds will most likely also render your "professional NLE" argument moot, since the transcoding method used by Edius and others to make huge AVI files, at slow speeds, out of AVCHD, merely reflects, as you correctly state, today's inadequate processor capacity. With the way things are obviously heading, many cores and video card assisted rendering will totally handle AVCHD without even the slightest thought of going into a transcoded intermediate format at all.

Thus it is entirely possible that should AVCHD become the event and prosumer choice in some future timeframe, that professional NLEs will no longer need to either transcode to AVI or create small proxy files in order to be useable.

No doubt there will continue to be a need for general purpose, multi-format NLEs, in which video from many different sources can be mixed and matched, allowing camera crews and other multi-sourced content to be edited and assembled into unified programs.

It should be clear to you that the reason your Edius choice for AVCHD is, as you say, so popular at NBC or other TV networks is NOT that it handles AVCHD well or efficiently. It is entirely about the versatility of being able to use a wide variety of formats, a situation which broadcasters and news gatherers face all the time.

You are conflating and confusing these professional needs which very legitimately justify products such as Edius and Final Cut Pro with the needs of today's AVCHD user. This is what my counter-argument and response in this thread is all about.

Since my 5 recommendations are at "the bottom of your list", I certainly would like to know which NLEs are at "the top of your list" for AVCHD use.

Speaking for myself, I would gladly exchange the wider range of effects, transitions, titles, and other glitz which the more elaborate and expensive NLEs provide for the speed, ease of use, and, (most of all) the clarity and detail which 'Smart Rendering' provides. The fact that the NLE costs 60 bucks versus 1300 matters not at all to me, since I personally decided to buy over a dozen NLEs including some very expensive ones like Final Cut Pro HD, and my personal AVCHD choice and recommendations are entirely driven by what I find myself using based on ultimate image quality and ease of use / speed, not cost. Most consumers, however, do not buy a dozen or more NLE programs, but instead rely on reviews and the opinions of others to help make an informed choice. And most of the time they prefer less expensive if possible.......

You and I differ profoundly on our perceptions of AVCHD demographics, market directions, editing philosophy, and which NLEs make sense today for AVCHD.

You clearly are comfortable with longer waits, greater expense, and recompression, and I am not. My goal is not to change your mind, or convince you of the error of your ways, since there is clearly room for a wide variety of approaches available for Don and others to chose from. Only time will tell whether your prediction of AVCHD as the format of choice for prosumer use will emerge, and any claims you or I want to make in forecasting future outcomes are, at best, highly speculative. For the time being, however, I would not consider Edius, Final Cut, or any other general purpose NLE to be either the 'only' solution or the "best" solution for Don or most other AVCHD users, with the possible exception of those who must mix HD content from a variety of sources.

Larry

[Larry Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

There are two ways to convert the AVCHD file using the AVC2HQ converter for use in Edius ( any of the versions )or any other NLE really. If one right clicks on the file and chooses "convert to-" then the converter only uses one core and can be 2.5 to 4 times realtime. Dragging the file over the ICON on the desktop uses all cores available and will convert in much less than realtime. The read me file with the converter is quite clear on these differences. On my Q9450 I can upload an hour of AVCHD from my SR11( using Sony Motion Browser to stitch all the files together properly as my projects are almost all over 1 hour and 15 mins continuous ) and convert to HQ in just over realtime( I recently copied to PC and converted a 1 hour 8 min video in 1 hour and 17 mins). Yes the files are much larger, which is true for any conversion to HQ even from HDV and of the same order as using Cineform intermediate. The converted file is an intra frame file so does not have the problems of the inter frame files of the original GOP file to deal with for any effects etc and is much easier on CPU for editing software that can use the file( Vegas will happily use a Canopus HQ file). I backup the AVCHD file and just use the HQ file for editing then delete.
I use Edius Pro 4.6 which is very different to Neo and does include a simple DVD authoring application and in my mind the very best multicam editing application.
For my family videos using AVCHD I actually use the Sony Motion Browser software that came with the SR11. More than adequate for simple AVCHD video recorded on standard 4.7G discs with simple but adequate menus and a choice of smooth playback through each of the clips or for a faster assembly, accept the minor stop at the end of each clip ( sequential play rather than smooth play I call it!!!) In my experience Nero has this same issue. Specifying smooth playback through the clips seems to initiate a render that takes time.

Ron Evans

Thanks Ron for your feedback. Believe it or not, I actually did read the "How to Use the AVC2HQ Converter" pdf file before trying to do the conversions and found that only one of the 2 described methods works on my machine, the right click. The drop and drag method which apparently works much faster on some machines but not mine could be a much better solution.

Perhaps this function may be unavailable because I am using Vista? I make this comment because all of the other Edius versions are not supported under Vista, only the Neo version I installed, and perhaps this Neo version of Edius still has some unsupported features.

Frankly, even with your faster conversion times of a little over real-time, I would not have the slightest desire to wait an hour or more to convert my AVCHD to some other format even if this faster method worked on my Vista machine,and I clearly have no interest in waiting nearly 5 hours using the current verion of Edius as it now runs on my machine.

Larry

[Mircea Voinea]

Well, from pure IT standing point, it's clear that it's better that the workflow should be in original format, and it's better to smartrender.
This discusion reminds me the moment when Ulead had the first NLE with smartrendering. Many Premiere users considered that it's a useless gimmick, and even Adobe doesn't bother to implement. And it also reminds me the price difference and easy of use between Premiere and Ulead...

Of course Nero has limitations (well, one funny is that it's player Showtime can't play AVCHD DVD created with Vision, but PowerDVD can), but for me to make an AVCHD DVD is the easiest way (other than copy original files to DVD). The Picture Motion Browser that came with my camera is the biggest POS (it doesn't work at all, and at FAQ it stated that if you have any other codec installed it will not work).