Creating a DVD that displays in Hi Def on a Blu-Ray player

[Larry Horwitz]

I failed to mention that I am a huge fan of Vegas and DVD Architect generally, and have done several years of really superb HDV work with it. I also have done several hundred different HD DVDs and settled on using DVD Studio Pro (on the Mac), and Ulead on the PC with stunning results. (Vegas suite can't make HD DVDs either.......)

AVCHD is a whole different game however, and, in my own experience, the Vegas suite just does not measure up with the other competitors when it comes to making what the original poster is looking for, a way to make DVDs for BluRay playback using AVCHD content.

Larry

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

Steve,

1. I own the Vegas suite including the latest version 5 DVD Architect and it CANNOT AUTHOR red laser menued AVCHD disks. The ONLY way to make red laser AVCHD disks with the suite is directly out of Vegas Pro 8.0b.

2. Vegas 9 may indeed be better, but it is futureware. I am not even aware that the new Movie Studio 9 allows menued red AVCHD disks. To my knowledge, it can't do them either.


3. I know that Ulead MF6 does not recompresss and that is why I like it and recommend it. Unfortunatgely, the Vegas + MF6 approach / method you describe demands recompression in Vegas prior to using MF6, so the damage and delay is already done before getting into MF6. Hence, my objection.

4. Well, Ulead Video Studio 11.5, Pinnacle, Cyberlink and Nero Vision do real time effects on my quadcore with no need to render them out for preview. Your claim / comment / experience differs entirely with mine.

5. I agree with you about Pinnacle image quality, but Cyberlink does handle 5.1 and Sony's encoder is NOT the best looking for the cropped still frame comparisons I have made and examined exhaustively. Since Vegas ALWAYS rerenders Canon 17 and 24 Mbit/sec footage, its image quality is very noticeably inferior to the untouched, non-re-rendered footage I produce with several of the cheap NLEs. Perhaps for Sony camcorders the situation is different. My Vegas (unmenued) red laser AVCHDs look soft, and the color is slighly washed out compared to the results I get with Nero Vision, for example.

Larry

I think there are four issues:

1) NeroVision isn't really an NLE, It is a "splicing" program. CyberLink and Ulead IMHO are consumer quality NLEs compared to Vegas which IMHO is way below FCP or Avid Media Composer. Pinnacle is ALMOST an NLE, but we both agree the output quality is bad.

2) You are using a Quad core while I suspect most all laptop and most box PC users have only a Dual core. So you clearly have an huge advantage when it comes to RT.

3) The maximum AVCHD bit-rate is 18Mbps so 24Mbps AVCHD is always going to be recompressed. Likewise, the maximum red-laser BD is 18Mbps. So, unless one buys a BD burner, the limit is 18Mbps. (Possibly 20Mbps, but that's pushing it.)

4) I don't share your concern about recompression. EVERY SD and HD format other than AVCHD has ALWAYS been recompressed going to an optical disc. That means every dicc you buy has been through recompression -- yet we accept the quality. Now that can lead to two conclusions:

A) AVCHD is not exactly high-quality to start with -- with present camcorders almost equal to HDV. Given it's low quality, why sweat a bit of loss from recompression. I'd rather use a "good" NLE.

B) AVCHD is not exactly high-quality to start with -- with present camcorders almost equal to HDV. Given it's low quality, it's vital to prevent any more loss of quality. So you might be willing to give-up Vegas for CyberLink, for example.

I think what all this means is that one's answer to the posted question depends on one's hardware and goals.

I'm going to buy Vegas Movie Studio 9 because it INCLUDES AC3 encoding. Then I'll try RENDER AS to make a file for MF6 IF I need menus.

[Larry Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I think there are four issues:

1) NeroVision isn't really an NLE, It is a "splicing" program. CyberLink and Ulead IMHO are consumer quality NLEs compared to Vegas which IMHO is way below FCP or Avid Media Composer. Pinnacle is ALMOST an NLE, but we both agree the output quality is bad.

2) You are using a Quad core while I suspect most all laptop and most box PC users have only a Dual core. So you clearly have an huge advantage when it comes to RT.

3) The maximum AVCHD bit-rate is 18Mbps so 24Mbps AVCHD is always going to be recompressed. Likewise, the maximum red-laser BD is 18Mbps. So, unless one buys a BD burner, the limit is 18Mbps. (Possibly 20Mbps, but that's pushing it.)

4) I don't share your concern about recompression. EVERY SD and HD format other than AVCHD has ALWAYS been recompressed going to an optical disc. That means every dicc you buy has been through recompression -- yet we accept the quality. Now that can lead to two conclusions:

A) AVCHD is not exactly high-quality to start with -- with present camcorders almost equal to HDV. Given it's low quality, why sweat a bit of loss from recompression. I'd rather use a "good" NLE.

B) AVCHD is not exactly high-quality to start with -- with present camcorders almost equal to HDV. Given it's low quality, it's vital to prevent any more loss of quality. So you might be willing to give-up Vegas for CyberLink, for example.

I think what all this means is that one's answer to the posted question depends on one's hardware and goals.

I'm going to buy Vegas Movie Studio 9 because it INCLUDES AC3 encoding. Then I'll try RENDER AS to make a file for MF6 IF I need menus.

Steve,

1. Nero Vision does the complete ingest, editing, transitions, titling, and effects as any other NLE, admitedly fewer effects and transitions, but I would say it is truly an NLE. It certainly is not among the most powerful NLEs out there, and it is pointless to debate semantics, but I use it as a start to finish program which authors burned AVCHD disks from ingested AVCHD camcorder input, so I can't think of another term to describe it, and most certainly do NOT call it a "splicing program" as you do.

2. I definitely consider my quadcore an essential AVCHD tool, but I argue and recognize that it allows real time preview from all of the "cheap" programs I stated, unlike Vegas, which won't do real time anything depsite having the fastest quadcore Intel makes. My criticism of Vegas stands..... since most other vendors properly exploit the quadcore and yet Vegas does not yet do so.

3. I don't know where you get your numbers from, but I have burned AVCHD disks up to 24 Mbits/sec on red laser disks and played them at that same speed. Why do you say there is an 18 Mbit/sec limit??????? When I use programs which I describe as those which do not re-compress, I am observing that these programs take ingested .mts timeline files and create the output .mts disk image files in the very same amount of time it takes to make a direct file copy of the same sized input .mts file. Those programs which require re-compression typically take 2 to 5 times longer to create the output file. I disagree entirely with your statement that "AVCHD is always going to be re-compressed". As a matter of fact, a quick look at the $169 AVCHD burner accessory for the Canon cameras, the DW-100 disk burner has no authoring or editing other than deleting clips, and uses the camcorder's BDMV folder directly to burn the disk without recompression whatsoever as well.

4. I disagree with your premise that "every HD format going to HD has always been recompressed going to an optical disk". My HDV HD DVD disks contained .m2t timeline files whose output .evo files were created by some (cheap) authoring software with absolutely no recompression whatsoever, and were written to my hard disk in the very same amount of time it took to directly copy them as .m2t files. The .evo files were the same size, played at exactly the same rate (25 Mbit/sec), made it extremely explict that they were NOT being re-rendered with such messages as "100% Smart Rendered" as the HD DVDs were being created, and played in a visually identical way to the original HDV camcorder output and .m2t file playback. Cropped still frame clips appear identical from input to output whereas the re-rendered versions were always slower and degraded. What is your interpretation of "smart rendering" and how can you claim that all content is re-compressed. Yes, I recognize that some disks require re-muxing of video and audio streams, but this is NOT re-compression.

Finally, and MOST significantly, I want to tell you that AVCHD looks equal to and in some cases superior to HDV, at least for the 4 HDV / AVCHD camcorders I have owned, and any argument which begins with the assertion of your "A" or "B" above that "AVCHD is not exactly high quality" demonstrates a basic ignorance of what AVCHD really looks like.

I readily will admit that a Sony PMW-EX3 XDCAM EX HD Camcorder selling for 8 grand is going to make vastly better looking HDV videos compared to today's top of the line 2 grand AVCHD camcorder, but I argue that the quality of AVCHD is presently capped by camera makers rather than the AVCHD format. An EX3 with an AVCHD encoder would likely convince you of that should such a camera currently exist.

More to the point, consumer camcorders in the price range below $1000 are nearly equal in either format, with those of us who own and use both formats seeing mostly subtle differences. Re-rendering is by far the most damaging insult to the content, and I, for one, strongly prefer and recommend software which eliminates this compromise.

Vegas 8 and Vegas Movie Studio 9, and their "RENDER AS" merely recompress the timeline, do not author menued disks, and add degredation, long delays, and the need for yet another program like Ulead MF6 to make a recompressed disk. I see absolutely no advantage is this workflow.


Could you please tell me specifically:

-where does your 18 Mbit/sec AVCHD limit come from?

-why my huge advantage in real time with a quadcore in any way legitimizes Vegas / Movie Studio, both of which totally lack real time on my machine, but somehow diminish my recommended cheaper NLE programs which you incorrect identify as lacking real time, even though they somehow figured out how to do real time previews even though Sony has not???

-what is the basis for your belief that every HD format other than AVCHD requires recompression to optical disk??

Thanks in advance for your reply,

Larry

[Kaushik Parmar]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

Steve,

1. Nero Vision does the complete ingest, editing, transitions, titling, and effects as any other NLE, admitedly fewer effects and transitions, but I would say it is truly an NLE. It certainly is not among the most powerful NLEs out there, and it is pointless to debate semantics, but I use it as a start to finish program which authors burned AVCHD disks from ingested AVCHD camcorder input, so I can't think of another term to describe it, and most certainly do NOT call it a "splicing program" as you do.

2. I definitely consider my quadcore an essential AVCHD tool, but I argue and recognize that it allows real time preview from all of the "cheap" programs I stated, unlike Vegas, which won't do real time anything depsite having the fastest quadcore Intel makes. My criticism of Vegas stands..... since most other vendors properly exploit the quadcore and yet Vegas does not yet do so.

3. I don't know where you get your numbers from, but I have burned AVCHD disks up to 24 Mbits/sec on red laser disks and played them at that same speed. Why do you say there is an 18 Mbit/sec limit??????? When I use programs which I describe as those which do not re-compress, I am observing that these programs take ingested .mts timeline files and create the output .mts disk image files in the very same amount of time it takes to make a direct file copy of the same sized input .mts file. Those programs which require re-compression typically take 2 to 5 times longer to create the output file. I disagree entirely with your statement that "AVCHD is always going to be re-compressed". As a matter of fact, a quick look at the $169 AVCHD burner accessory for the Canon cameras, the DW-100 disk burner has no authoring or editing other than deleting clips, and uses the camcorder's BDMV folder directly to burn the disk without recompression whatsoever as well.

4. I disagree with your premise that "every HD format going to HD has always been recompressed going to an optical disk". My HDV HD DVD disks contained .m2t timeline files whose output .evo files were created by some (cheap) authoring software with absolutely no recompression whatsoever, and were written to my hard disk in the very same amount of time it took to directly copy them as .m2t files. The .evo files were the same size, played at exactly the same rate (25 Mbit/sec), made it extremely explict that they were NOT being re-rendered with such messages as "100% Smart Rendered" as the HD DVDs were being created, and played in a visually identical way to the original HDV camcorder output and .m2t file playback. Cropped still frame clips appear identical from input to output whereas the re-rendered versions were always slower and degraded. What is your interpretation of "smart rendering" and how can you claim that all content is re-compressed. Yes, I recognize that some disks require re-muxing of video and audio streams, but this is NOT re-compression.

Finally, and MOST significantly, I want to tell you that AVCHD looks equal to and in some cases superior to HDV, at least for the 4 HDV / AVCHD camcorders I have owned, and any argument which begins with the assertion of your "A" or "B" above that "AVCHD is not exactly high quality" demonstrates a basic ignorance of what AVCHD really looks like.

I readily will admit that a Sony PMW-EX3 XDCAM EX HD Camcorder selling for 8 grand is going to make vastly better looking HDV videos compared to today's top of the line 2 grand AVCHD camcorder, but I argue that the quality of AVCHD is presently capped by camera makers rather than the AVCHD format. An EX3 with an AVCHD encoder would likely convince you of that should such a camera currently exist.

More to the point, consumer camcorders in the price range below $1000 are nearly equal in either format, with those of us who own and use both formats seeing mostly subtle differences. Re-rendering is by far the most damaging insult to the content, and I, for one, strongly prefer and recommend software which eliminates this compromise.

Vegas 8 and Vegas Movie Studio 9, and their "RENDER AS" merely recompress the timeline, do not author menued disks, and add degredation, long delays, and the need for yet another program like Ulead MF6 to make a recompressed disk. I see absolutely no advantage is this workflow.


Could you please tell me specifically:

-where does your 18 Mbit/sec AVCHD limit come from?

-why my huge advantage in real time with a quadcore in any way legitimizes Vegas / Movie Studio, both of which totally lack real time on my machine, but somehow diminish my recommended cheaper NLE programs which you incorrect identify as lacking real time, even though they somehow figured out how to do real time previews even though Sony has not???

-what is the basis for your belief that every HD format other than AVCHD requires recompression to optical disk??

Thanks in advance for your reply,

Larry

Huh! Waiting reply of Steve! Larry why you are so blunt? I am afraid!

Kaushik

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

Steve,

1. Nero Vision does the complete ingest, editing, transitions, titling, and effects as any other NLE, admitedly fewer effects and transitions, but I would say it is truly an NLE.

2. ... unlike Vegas, which won't do real time anything depsite having the fastest quadcore Intel makes.

3. As a matter of fact, a quick look at the $169 AVCHD burner accessory for the Canon cameras, the DW-100 disk burner has no authoring or editing other than deleting clips, and uses the camcorder's BDMV folder directly to burn the disk without recompression whatsoever as well.

4. I disagree with your premise that "every HD format going to HD has always been recompressed going to an optical disk". My HDV HD DVD disks contained .m2t timeline files whose output .evo files were created by some (cheap) authoring software with absolutely no recompression whatsoever, and were written to my hard disk in the very same amount of time it took to directly copy them as .m2t files.

1) Honestly, I have never heard of Nero being anything other than a collection of CD/DVD burning tools. Roxio claims "Enjoy your favorite TV shows without interruption simply by editing out the commercial breaks" which is why I called it a splicer. Going to their site it looks like they now support AVCHD in some kind of storyboard with transitions between shots. VideoMaker describes as EXACTLY as I would, "Nero is one of the most popular disc-burning suites for Windows, and certainly one of the most comprehensive disc-burning suites for any platform. You can also design covers, manage photos, convert and edit video, convert music and edit WAV files."

2) You are correct, Vegas isn't RT which is why I ONLY recommend EDIUS, FCP, or iMovie 08 for video editing. I don't use Vegas for video editing. I use Vegas ONLY to add and mix 5.1 audio to something I edited with EDIUS, FCP, MC, or iMovie 08. It's only a 5.1 audio tool for me. If I want menus, I also use MF6 and burn from it. (The ONLY reason to use Vegas and MF6 is because Apple doesn't support BD -- and may not.) Otherwise, I stick with OS X based products -- other than EDIUS 4.6. (Frankly, I don't see why anyone using Windows would consider anything but EDIUS for video editing. If NBC can buy hundreds of copies, I figure that is more than good enough for me.)

This PROCESS is no different than using an Apple (or Adobe) Editing Suite. Import AVCHD or HDV or XDCAM or DVCPRO HD or P2 into FCP. Edit in RT, pass to Soundtrack for 5.1 mixing, pass to DVDStudioPro, and burn. (For compositing, video is moved in and out of AE/Flame.) This process is used for every HD production you see on TV -- although a Media Composer may be used in place of FCP. You really can't claim COPYING .m2t files to a disc is is an example of video HD PRODUCTION.

3) Bottom line, I don't assume AVCHD as my source format or AVCHD as my BD format. In fact, even when I shoot AVCHD, it is immediately converted to ProRes 422 or AIC. I have no interest in burning an AVCHD disk. If I burn a BD disc, I use MPEG-2 because it is many times faster to encode. If I burn a red-laser disc -- I use MPEG-2 at 18Mbps which is the same as broadcast HDTV.

4) If you read the description of Canon's DVD burner -- it specifically notes that 24Mbps AVCHD can NOT be played back on BD players -- ONLY on Canon's DVD BURNER. This makes sense to me because here is a typical comment on burning AVCHD. "There are several options that you can set for encoding, and you can encode either MPEG2 or H264 (H264 is much more efficient). One note of caution. If you are using AVCHD to burn to a standard DVD, do not set the data rate higher than 1500kbps. While you can encode to a Blu-Ray disc at up to 4000kbps, you will get skipping if you go much over 1500 on a red laser DVD."

Here's another comment, "The video data rate will determine the players that your "Blueray DVD" can play on and will also affect the length of the video you can get on a DVD. At the moment I have settled on about 15Mbps, CBR with linear audio. With Dolby audio, I am sure that it will work fine.
I have consistant good results using 15Mbps (upper field first) for the video files and PCM for the audio. If you encode the audio in Dolby the video files could probably be 16Mbps or even a little higher. You will get about 30 - 35 minutes on a single layer 4.7GB DVD. I had limited success with a variey of disks, but 100% success with Sony DVD-R and Verbatim DVD-R disks. Don't even try DVD+R disks as the players I have tried will not recognise them."

[Mike Burgess]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

....3) Bottom line, I don't assume AVCHD as my source format or AVCHD as my BD format. In fact, even when I shoot AVCHD, it is immediately converted to ProRes 422 or AIC. I have no interest in burning an AVCHD disk. If I burn a BD disc, I use MPEG-2 because it is many times faster to encode. If I burn a red-laser disc -- I use MPEG-2 at 18Mbps which is the same as broadcast HDTV.

...."I had limited success with a variey of disks, but 100% success with Sony DVD-R and Verbatim DVD-R disks. Don't even try DVD+R disks as the players I have tried will not recognise them."

I know that I have eliminated much of your quote, but it is these two items I have a question about.
1. As to the "don't even try DVD+R disks" part of your quote, I have burned AVCHD footage onto a Verbatim DVD+R and played it on a Pany BD30 player (it worked just fine). So the author never tried the Pany BD30. But apparently, I should burn only using Verbatim DVD-R from now on, right?
2. Do you recomment changing my archived AVCHD footage to Mpeg2 when I want to use Pinnacle 12? Will I lose any quality in my results?

Thanks.
Mike

[Larry Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

1) Honestly, I have never heard of Nero being anything other than a collection of CD/DVD burning tools. Roxio claims "Enjoy your favorite TV shows without interruption simply by editing out the commercial breaks" which is why I called it a splicer. Going to their site it looks like they now support AVCHD in some kind of storyboard with transitions between shots. VideoMaker describes as EXACTLY as I would, "Nero is one of the most popular disc-burning suites for Windows, and certainly one of the most comprehensive disc-burning suites for any platform. You can also design covers, manage photos, convert and edit video, convert music and edit WAV files."

2) You are correct, Vegas isn't RT which is why I ONLY recommend EDIUS, FCP, or iMovie 08 for video editing. I don't use Vegas for video editing. I use Vegas ONLY to add and mix 5.1 audio to something I edited with EDIUS, FCP, MC, or iMovie 08. It's only a 5.1 audio tool for me. If I want menus, I also use MF6 and burn from it. (The ONLY reason to use Vegas and MF6 is because Apple doesn't support BD -- and may not.) Otherwise, I stick with OS X based products -- other than EDIUS 4.6. (Frankly, I don't see why anyone using Windows would consider anything but EDIUS for video editing. If NBC can buy hundreds of copies, I figure that is more than good enough for me.)

This PROCESS is no different than using an Apple (or Adobe) Editing Suite. Import AVCHD or HDV or XDCAM or DVCPRO HD or P2 into FCP. Edit in RT, pass to Soundtrack for 5.1 mixing, pass to DVDStudioPro, and burn. (For compositing, video is moved in and out of AE/Flame.) This process is used for every HD production you see on TV -- although a Media Composer may be used in place of FCP. You really can't claim COPYING .m2t files to a disc is is an example of video HD PRODUCTION.

3) Bottom line, I don't assume AVCHD as my source format or AVCHD as my BD format. In fact, even when I shoot AVCHD, it is immediately converted to ProRes 422 or AIC. I have no interest in burning an AVCHD disk. If I burn a BD disc, I use MPEG-2 because it is many times faster to encode. If I burn a red-laser disc -- I use MPEG-2 at 18Mbps which is the same as broadcast HDTV.

4) If you read the description of Canon's DVD burner -- it specifically notes that 24Mbps AVCHD can NOT be played back on BD players -- ONLY on Canon's DVD BURNER. This makes sense to me because here is a typical comment on burning AVCHD. "There are several options that you can set for encoding, and you can encode either MPEG2 or H264 (H264 is much more efficient). One note of caution. If you are using AVCHD to burn to a standard DVD, do not set the data rate higher than 1500kbps. While you can encode to a Blu-Ray disc at up to 4000kbps, you will get skipping if you go much over 1500 on a red laser DVD."

Here's another comment, "The video data rate will determine the players that your "Blueray DVD" can play on and will also affect the length of the video you can get on a DVD. At the moment I have settled on about 15Mbps, CBR with linear audio. With Dolby audio, I am sure that it will work fine.
I have consistant good results using 15Mbps (upper field first) for the video files and PCM for the audio. If you encode the audio in Dolby the video files could probably be 16Mbps or even a little higher. You will get about 30 - 35 minutes on a single layer 4.7GB DVD. I had limited success with a variey of disks, but 100% success with Sony DVD-R and Verbatim DVD-R disks. Don't even try DVD+R disks as the players I have tried will not recognise them."

1. Nero Vision is not even made by Roxio Steve. You are referring to another program which competes with Nero. Nero is made by Ahead Software. I can only imagine that you have not used Nero Vision. Your 'splicing' reference is wrong, and your quote is wrong as well.

2. I guess you are now agreeing to my original position, namely, that Vegas 8 Pro lacks several key justifications to make it the "right" AVCHD editing and authoring tool, since it lacks real time preview, can't do BD disk menues, and forces re-rendering........3 deal breakers IMHO. It certainly would not be at or near the top of my list. Those I did recomend highly are not in the same league of sophistication as Edius, but then again, they provide complete end-to-end ingest to menued AVCHD disks for $60 bucks or so, and thus are affordable by those who may not neccesarily want to spend the premium for Edius but still want great looking menued disks with the preservation of all of the original AVCHD detail without any re-rendering delay.

3. This forum specifically is for AVCHD users, and thus I entirely and absolutely disagree with the notion that transcoding to mpeg2 and making some form of mpeg2 disk makes any sense whatsoever, since AVCHD is very deliberately designed to capture and deliver to the end user an h.264 format which BluRay supports explictly.

How do you, in fact, after transcoding to your (supposedly maximum permitted) 18 Mbit/sec mpeg2 file even make a red laser BD DVD?????????????

If you have found a way to do so I would LOVE to know how, since I would be delighted to make NON-TRANSCODED HDV mpeg2 disks onto red laser and play them in my BluRay players. I have NOT found a way to do so, nor has anyone else to my knowledge.........The only method I have ever discovered to making red laser mpeg2 disks which play in BD players is to hand edit the BDMV files.

4. Your quote and comments are entirely and absolutely wrong in general, and only reflect a limitation of the $169 Canon AVCHD burner. I make and then play AVCHD disks with 21 Mbit/sec AVCHD both on my software PC players as well as my hardware BluRay players, and they explictly allow the bitrates to be displayed in real time as 21 Mbits/sec. In fact, red laser disks play 25 Mbit/sec HDV video as well, and this has been clearly demonstrated and used now for years to make HD DVD disks on red laser burners which neither skip nor have any playback problems whatseoever in either set-top or PC players.

With all due respect Steve, I must state that your familiarity and practical knowledge of AVCHD and the associated issues seems very "HDV based" and doesn't begin to exploit or properly employ the numerous tools and methods which allow the AVCHD content to be used intact. I find the recommendations you make and the approach(s) you provide to mostly add workflow delays, degrade the output, and create ficticious 18 Mbit/sec red laser BD disks.

Most of all I want to underscore that AVCHD was introduced as a low cost consumer format, and, if used properly is amazingly low cost, high quality, and fast to use, if the proper tools are employed. In my workflow, I can take an SD card from the AVCHD camcorder, trim and rearrange clips, and put out a BluRay-compatible AVCHD disk in a very short time, often no more than 10 minutes from start to finished burned disk, and the content looks identical to the original .mts footage. Many if not most consumers are NOT looking for the NBC studio solution you advocate, and AVCHD is not the format NBC or others would use. Your HDV-based thinking and tools are just absolutely wrong, in my opinion,for the reasons stated in my several replies to you.

Larry

[Mark Bausch]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

In my workflow, I can take an SD card from the AVCHD camcorder, trim and rearrange clips, and put out a BluRay-compatible AVCHD disk in a very short time, often no more than 10 minutes from start to finished burned disk, and the content looks identical to the original .mts footage.
Larry

Larry, I would very much appreciate it if you would describe, in as much detail as you can...your workflow.

You have put into words exactly what I want to do with my yet-to-be-purchased AVCHD device (probably the Canon 100)...and my yet-to-be-purchased 'XPS 420/Intel 9450/Radeon HD3870/4 GB RAM Vista 32 bit system.

I desire to trim and rearrange clips...and put a few transitions and titles in as well...but do not have the BluRay burner (yet) so the double layer DVDs will be my media, I guess...(or simply a [backed-up] hard disk attached to our Sony PS3). Your description of how users can use AVCHD describes exactly what I want to do...and makes me think that waiting awhile for AVCHD to settle out...was a good decision.

But now I'm ready to buy.

Thanks.

[Larry Horwitz]

Glad to help Mike!

The Nero workflow is as follows:

1. Take the SD card from the HF100 and place it in a card reader.

2. Open the BDMV folder and you will see the STREAM folder. Transfer the STREAM folder contents intact to your hard disk. This contains a single .mts file for each clip you recorded.

3. Open Nero Vision, Choose Make DVD-->AVCHD.

4. Choose "Add Video Files", navigate to your disk-based STREAM folder, and then open / select all of the clip / .mts files at once. The clips will now appear in a list with each showing a small icon of its actual video content as a thumbnail.

5. Use Nero to re-arrange, delete, trim, and otherwise organize your clips in the normal editing process. Choose transitions, add titles, optionally apply filters for color changes, sharpening, etc. to any or all clips. Optionally import still photographs if you wish to also include a high def slideshow.

6. Go to the next step where you will select and then optionally modify animated menus. Make your choice and then make whatever changes in the menus you prefer for fonts, buttons, layouts, colors, etc.

7. Optionally preview the authored disk as if it were being played back in your AVCHD / BluRay player using the built in player.

8. Burn the AVCHD disk on a red laser disk.

The finished disk can be done for all steps 1-8 in about 7-8 minutes on my system using the fastest method (described below) but normally takes about 10-12 minutes start to finish.

The fastest method, which I do not encourage, is to skip step 2 entirely, and use Nero Vision to open and read the clips directly from the SD card reader, rather than transferring the clips to an intermediary hard disk folder. This saves the time to copy all the clips, but leaves you no backup if for some reason the card or clips get corrupted.

A direct comparison of the .mts files coming out of the burn process to those going in from the SD card will reveal, even if you heavily enlarge and crop the fine detail to examine it, that the burned image .mts files are identical in appearance to the original clips. This is also very obvious when you play them as normal HD video. Each AVCHD clip is unaltered except for your cuts / trimming, and only the re-rendered clips which had some optional filtering or superimposed titles look slightly softer.

Step 8, the burning step, will show you a message for each clip which will say "Smart Rendering - 100%" as it processes, unless you decide to change colors, sharpen, or add other modifying elements like titles on top of video. Even then, only the small area of modification will be re-rendered.

Typically step 8 on my machine takes the normal burning time for a 16X DVD-R of a little over 5 minutes. If you chose the most elaborate animated menus, they will need to be rendered and this will add a few minutes time. Only the menus and NOT your clips will be rendered in this slow manner.

The resulting disk can be played in a set-top player or viewed using Nero's other great program, Nero Show Time, which plays AVCHD, BluRay (HD DVD, standard DVD) and a lot of other formats beautifully. If you want to be very cautious with dual layer disks which now cost about a buck apiece, you can also only burn the final BDMV folder to your hard disk rather than burn it to the DL disk. You can then view it with Show Time including all the menus, and then, if you like it, burn it to the DL disk with Nero Burning ROM, another program in the same $60 suite, in about 5 minutes time.

I am pretty sure that the Nero suite is a totally free trial so you can go through the entire process start to finish without buying the software, using .mts clips you can download from the Internet. This will allow you to experience the entire process and watch the finished AVCHD disk at no risk, if you want to try it out. Be sure to enlarge the Nero workspace to full screen so that all of the controls, previews, buttons, etc.are easily seen. For some reason, they initially use small windows for their program interface which need to be be maximized to best see and use them.

Hope this helps,

Larry


BTW, you will absolutely love the XPS420 for AVCHD. It is really superb.....Don't skimp on ram or CPU. Their BluRay burner is also quite good and not too expensive, and makes true BluRay blue laser disks using Nero if you would require 1 hour or longer playing times. At 11 bucks per blank I am not yet interested...

[Mircea Voinea]

Great post Larry, it's usefull not only to HF100, but for other camcorders as well: it's very easy to understand for everybody...
BTW, one little limitation of Nero Vision I think it's the limit to 1 video, 1 audio track, and you can't extract audio track from video and replace it (from what I try). But even Vegas 9 has it only in Platinum or Pro versions...

About BR disk, i'm curious if it's better for a long time archival than DVD. I read different/contradictory opinions about this. Of course it's expensive, but is it reliable in time?

[Vince Koo]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

4) I don't share your concern about recompression. EVERY SD and HD format other than AVCHD has ALWAYS been recompressed going to an optical disc. That means every dicc you buy has been through recompression -- yet we accept the quality.

Recompression is a huge deal for me. No matter how you look at it, more re-encoding means loss of quality; and since moving away from analog tapes, nothing less than original quality would make me happy (except inevitable re-rendering for transitions, titles, effects, overlays etc). Maintaining original quality is one of the main attraction of digital work flow for me. And with AVCHD, we can now maintain this quality all the way to the distribution media.

And even if you have the top of the line quad core computer, Smart rendering would still take substantially less time than re-encoding the whole thing. And I would much prefer having the edited video ready for viewing to waiting around for the rendering to finish.

[Larry Horwitz]

Thank you Mircea for your kind comments. I have far too little experience with the longevity of BD disks to form any type of meaningful opinion. I have been disappointed often with the standard def red laser disks I authored only a few years ago which now have lost their signal to noise ratio / contrast, presumably since the dye has changed with age.

For my money, tape is the best backup with a hard disk being a decent second choice, for content which is truly important and needs to be archived.

I certainly welcome the opinions of others with more experience in this area than I have.

Larry

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Larry Horwitz

1. Nero Vision is not even made by Roxio Steve. You are referring to another program which competes with Nero.

3. This forum specifically is for AVCHD users, and thus I entirely and absolutely disagree with the notion that transcoding to mpeg2 and making some form of mpeg2 disk makes any sense whatsoever, since AVCHD is very deliberately designed to capture and deliver to the end user an h.264 format which BluRay supports explictly.

Most of all I want to underscore that AVCHD was introduced as a low cost consumer format, and, if used properly is amazingly low cost, high quality, and fast to use, if the proper tools are employed.

1) I Googled for the company you said makes this program. I found a Wikki says, "Nero AG is a German software company based in Karlsbad, Germany. The company is best known for its CD and DVD-authoring software package, Nero Burning ROM. The company was founded in 1995 by Richard Lesser and was originally known as Ahead Software AG until January 2005, when it adopted its present name due to the vast popularity of Nero Burning ROM." So my ONLY error was assuming it was made by Roxio. Otherwise, everything I said about Nero was correct. It's a DVD burning program.

2) AVCHD, at 24Mbps, as used by Panasonic's new $4,000 camcorder clearly moves the format out of the consumer range. Moreover, AVCHD is used by those who edit with FCP and FCE. It is not confined to Windows users.

3) I reject your AVCHD is for those that spend $1000 on a camcorder and $60 for an editor attitude. Your solution may be perfect for these folks. Sorry, but that's not my focus. There is a huge installed base of folks who buy camcorders in the $2500 to $3500 price range and EXPECT to pay $500 to $1,000 for an NLE. Bluntly put, these folks are not going to use a $60 editor. There are too many missing features -- and I don't mean FX -- and frankly the reliability of these products is not high.

This "prosumer" market is exactly where Panasonic is aiming their new AVCHD camcorder. (I'll bet we see something from Canon, JVC, and perhaps even Sony in this price range by NAB. And, I'll bet they use H.264/AVC.) This is not an "AVCHD" market! Users may -- as I do -- use several camcorder formats. We CAN'T choose an NLE because it supports ONE format. The NLE must work for anything we may use -- and have used. And, it must run on a wide range of computers -- especially laptops, and in particular MacBook Pros and VAIOs. Which is why native AVCHD is not supported by ANY of these NLEs.

4) Recompression on the path to a BD disk is the NORMAL way of working. And, with 24Mbps AVCHD offering near XDCAM EX quality, there's no reason to fear recompression. (Once again, my goal is NOT an AVCHD disc. It is an HD disc that plays in a wide range of BD players. Or, a 720p HD upload in H.264.

PS: "Step 8, the burning step, will show you a message for each clip which will say "Smart Rendering - 100%" as it processes, unless you decide to change colors, ... ." Since I color correct every clip -- Smart Rendering does nothing for me.

[Larry Horwitz]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

1) I Googled for the company you said makes this program. I found a Wikki says, "Nero AG is a German software company based in Karlsbad, Germany. The company is best known for its CD and DVD-authoring software package, Nero Burning ROM. The company was founded in 1995 by Richard Lesser and was originally known as Ahead Software AG until January 2005, when it adopted its present name due to the vast popularity of Nero Burning ROM." So my ONLY error was assuming it was made by Roxio. Otherwise, everything I said about Nero was correct. It's a DVD burning program.

2) AVCHD, at 24Mbps, as used by Panasonic's new $4,000 camcorder clearly moves the format out of the consumer range. Moreover, AVCHD is used by those who edit with FCP and FCE. It is not confined to Windows users.

3) I reject your AVCHD is for those that spend $1000 on a camcorder and $60 for an editor attitude. Your solution may be perfect for these folks. Sorry, but that's not my focus. There is a huge installed base of folks who buy camcorders in the $2500 to $3500 price range and EXPECT to pay $500 to $1,000 for an NLE. Bluntly put, these folks are not going to use a $60 editor. There are too many missing features -- and I don't mean FX -- and frankly the reliability of these products is not high.

This "prosumer" market is exactly where Panasonic is aiming their new AVCHD camcorder. (I'll bet we see something from Canon, JVC, and perhaps even Sony in this price range by NAB. And, I'll bet they use H.264/AVC.) This is not an "AVCHD" market! Users may -- as I do -- use several camcorder formats. We CAN'T choose an NLE because it supports ONE format. The NLE must work for anything we may use -- and have used. And, it must run on a wide range of computers -- especially laptops, and in particular MacBook Pros and VAIOs. Which is why native AVCHD is not supported by ANY of these NLEs.

4) Recompression on the path to a BD disk is the NORMAL way of working. And, with 24Mbps AVCHD offering near XDCAM EX quality, there's no reason to fear recompression. (Once again, my goal is NOT an AVCHD disc. It is an HD disc that plays in a wide range of BD players. Or, a 720p HD upload in H.264.

PS: "Step 8, the burning step, will show you a message for each clip which will say "Smart Rendering - 100%" as it processes, unless you decide to change colors, ... ." Since I color correct every clip -- Smart Rendering does nothing for me.

Steve,

1. Whether you want to now call it a "DVD burning program" or continue calling it a "splicing program" as you did previously, you are entirely, altogether, and completely wrong in not recognizing that Nero Vision, which ingests, edits, filters, and authors DVDs, BluRay disks, etc. is an NLE. It truly is an NLE whether you dismiss it erroneously or not.

As the 8 Nero Vision NLE steps I posted indicate, this program has entirely the same flow as any of the other NLE programs, many of which I own and use as well. And your characterization of the program as not being an NLE, combined with describing it from a different vendor, shows your ignorance of the product in particular.

Rather than Google a description of it, why not download and use the damn program so you can talk intelligently about it???

2. Who ever said AVCHD was not used by Mac users, and what in the world does this have to do with either my replies or the original post, which does not ask at all about the Mac. I own and use Final Cut Pro HD, iMovie, as well as an earlier version of Premiere for the Mac, but we are now off on a topic which is yet another red herring, totally divorced from the specific issue in question.

3. You refer to a huge base of people who buy camcorders in the $2500 to $3500 price range who "expect to pay $500 to $1000 for an NLE" and dismissively reject my recommendations for several low cost alternative NLEs. I am here to tell you that Don's original post requested help on a PC for a low cost AVCHD camcorder, and the fact that somebody offers a $4000 AVCHD camcorder doesn't change that reality.

The true reality is that the Panasonic $4000 camcorder is an extremely small percentage of the AVCHD market, and I would guess that less than 1%of the total sales to date of AVCHD can be ascribed to this $4000 model. Most likely more like .01% of sales if I had to take a guess. All the rest of the AVCHD camcorders sold are consumers like Don who are NOT trying to spend $500 to $1000 on an NLE.


Since we are getting blunt and frank, let me get blunt and frank:

Your focus, as you readily admit, is NOT an AVCHD disk. Clearly you choose to use the BluRay solution with your rationale for recompression of AVCHD into another format. Your focus is also most obviously on a high end approach which is very costly, comparatively speaking. And your focus is on the Macintosh, since your early, incorrect reply to another thread made it painfully obvious to me and others that you thought there was only 1 AVCHD player for the PC when in fact there are over a dozen total ways to play AVCHD on the PC. My plain, blunt, and frank comment is that YOUR FOCUS is NOT what the original poster was asking for. Don very clearly states in his original post that he is using a PC, has an inexpensive AVCHD camcorder, wants to avoid the cost of an expensive BluRay burner if he can, and is looking for help.

By dismissing the obvious low cost, AVCHD PC solutions I propose, and putting forth your absolutely inappropriate agenda of expensive software, BluRay burner, recompression, and then justifying your choice on the basis of what YOUR FOCUS is, totally missses Don's request and very unfairly attacks my alternative approach. Don does NOT have a $4000 Panasonic, does NOT want to make BluRay disks, and most certainly would prefer NOT spending nearly as much or more for his NLE software as he did for his camcorder. And who says Don, unlike you, will apply color adjustments and filters to every clip as you say you will, thus always needing recompression? Why do you insist on responding to the question posed by saying how *****YOU***** want to make BluRay disks on a Mac while Don asks how he can make lower cost disks on his PC? And then dismiss those who reply to Don's original post because they fail to entertain what Steve Mullen wants to do on his Mac with his $4000 Panasonic camcorder.

And finally, since we are getting blunt and frank, I notice, once again, that you have not provided any evidence whatsoever of how you make your (ficticious) 18Mbit/sec mpeg2 red laser disks which play on a BluRay player, nor do I see any substantiation for your earlier (entirely incorrect) claim that:


"The maximum AVCHD bit-rate is 18Mbps so 24Mbps AVCHD is always going to be recompressed. Likewise, the maximum red-laser BD is 18Mbps. So, unless one buys a BD burner, the limit is 18Mbps. (Possibly 20Mbps, but that's pushing it.)"


Where in the world do you get this grossly incorrect information from?????

Larry

[Steve Mullen]

You should go back and read Don's post. He does not own some cheap AVCHD camcorder. He owns one of the most expensive -- the SR11. He also owns Vegas 9 which although cheap, has most of the features of Vegas 8 Pro. He only wanted to know if he could burn HD without a BD burner. I supported his continued use of Vegas.

You then pointed-out that Vegas -- which he likes and already has -- doesn't add the menus YOU want. He never said he wanted menus!

I recommend he could use MF6 IF HE NEEDED MENUS. Then you went off on a rant of the evils of recompression. And, based upon this, you recommend he switch to a $60 DVD burner program that would be nothing like Vegas he already uses.

And, yes -- I went off on my own rant. His question went unanswered.

I just finished burning AVCHD on red-laser DVD-R so I can tell Don YES he can burn HD on red-laser. But, he will be limited to 18Mbps because that is the SAFE maximum supported by AVCHD. (Actually, the AVCHD Template was 16Mbps, but I increased it to the MAXIMUM allowed.)

So Don can choose to dump Vegas 9 and use Nero and burn !!Mbps red-laser discs.

Or, he can stay with Vegas 9 and burn 18Mbps AVCHD discs that have 5.1 audio and, if he wants, menus.