Blu-Ray authoring workflow (from EX1 footage)

[Barry J. Weckesser]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

The problem with the EX1 (for me), is in getting that gorgeous 1920 native 35 mbps onto blu-ray without getting it rendered somewhere in the editing/authoring chain.

In any editing program, if you apply filters (color correction, special effects), transitions etc. don't the files by definition have to be "rendered" even if you are outputing the same format that you used for native editing?

As an experiment, I took a native EX1 .mp4 file and renamed it to .mpg and it was able to be imported into MF6 - it played in the preview window but in fast motion. I then proceeded to make a blu-ray disc with motion menus and during the process there appeared to be no rendering (according to the program). It does play in the PS3 with good picture quality with a slight "jerkiness" every few seconds but the audio did not import with the video. It would seem to me that if you could get this far with an inexpensive program like MF6 that there should be software on the horizon that could accept native XDCAM-EX files without rendering for authoring blu-ray discs

[Mike Williams]

Has anyone sucessfully used Toast 9 to burn a non-data blu-ray disk? As in a BR video from an FCP6 project?

My eyes glaze over after reading the hoops we need to go through to author a BR disk, especially us gifted MAC users left in the dust by ADOBE.

As for me I shoot events and want to deliver in BR with no copy protection needed. I don't spend any more time in front of my computer than I need to and don't care about watching BR feature films on it. Why can't we have the ability on a MAC system with MAC software to burn our "home movies" on BR?

Sorry for the rant but I'm surely not alone here. I have been looking to accomplish the same task as the OP.

So far I have garnered:

1) Don't try to install an internal BR drive into a Mac Pro.. it's very difficult and may not work correctly all the time.

2) It seems the USB BR drives are not that popular but have not read why. Is it a speed issue? At 2-4X write speeds could the USB be a bottleneck? External SATA needs a special card?

3) I read that one can use compressor to make H.264 files and import those to Encore ($800) then burn BR disk. Did not get compressor settings for this, and some have had reliability issues.

I would love to read how people are accomplishing a BR video disk all within a MAC platform, even using third party software too. Thanks for the post!

Buena suerte, y espero que tengas un buen dia:)

Mike

[Barry J. Anwender]

Originally Posted by Mike Williams

Has anyone sucessfully used Toast 9 to burn a non-data blu-ray disk? As in a BR video from an FCP6 project?

Mike, yes I have successfully used Toast9 to burn 1080i and 1080p 24fps video on a Blu-ray disk. The Blu-ray video plays properly in my Sony BDP-S300 home theatre player. The only caution is that you will need the latest software update from Roxio 9.0.2(261). The 9.0.2(249) still had problems so be careful that you install the (261) update. No coaster so far with either rewritable or write-once Blu-ray video discs. As for the workflow, I have let Toast do the transcoding rather than using DVD Studio Pro. There is a link mentioned in this thread that outlines a possible DVD Studio Pro transcoding workflow. I will be trying that out once I return from a shoot scheduled for this weekend.

I agree with you that Adobe Encore is a pain to learn and use. Contrary to what has been reported elsewhere, the current version of Encore is stable on my system, no crashes or the like. However, it is not intuitive at all and a totally different approach than the Apple's DVD Studio Pro. That said, if you are familiar with Photoshop or some of the other CS3 applications, once you catch on to how the tool bar menus work, then its possible to lower the learning curve in Encore. Encore provides much more flexibility in terms of motion menus, chapters and the like. As with Toast9, I let Encore do the transcoding step. I have successfully used Encore to make Blu-ray video discs with menus that play properly on my Sony Blu-ray home theatre player.

Finally, I have a MacPro Octo Early 2008 and have successfully installed the Sony BWU-200S (B&H Photo), a 4x Blu-ray burner mounted internally in the second burner bay. It is not rocket science and is actually not that hard to do. Apple has made access to the drive bays a breeze. The bezel will need to be removed from the Sony drive before mounting it in the drive bay. Then as I have already mentioned in another thread, you will need an inexpensive SATA-IDE bridge board (granitedigital.com) and a 3-4" IDE extension cable. Most important, the existing DVD burner in bay no.1 should have its IDE cable jumper set to "slave." That's it, all drives and burners work and play like they are supposed to in OSX. I have also tested the Sony Blu-ray burner in Boot Camp with the XP operating system and it works as advertised in the Windows environment. I have not encountered any issues since installation two months ago.

Be patient, take the time to move up the learning curve, especially in Encore. Toast9 is intuitive and easy to use especially if you have worked with the previous versions. Cheers!

[Tom Roper]

Originally Posted by Barry J. Weckesser

In any editing program, if you apply filters (color correction, special effects), transitions etc. don't the files by definition have to be "rendered" even if you are outputing the same format that you used for native editing?

As an experiment, I took a native EX1 .mp4 file and renamed it to .mpg and it was able to be imported into MF6 - it played in the preview window but in fast motion. I then proceeded to make a blu-ray disc with motion menus and during the process there appeared to be no rendering (according to the program). It does play in the PS3 with good picture quality with a slight "jerkiness" every few seconds but the audio did not import with the video. It would seem to me that if you could get this far with an inexpensive program like MF6 that there should be software on the horizon that could accept native XDCAM-EX files without rendering for authoring blu-ray discs

Some editors "smart render" just the transition or filtered part, and a few frames on either side of the edit point, without rendering the whole video. I tried using MF6+ as well, however it wanted to render the entire 1920 35 mbps vbr BDMV project, but would allow a smart render for 1440 HDV. So far, the answer is to shoot in 1440 HDV mode which is not bad, but still disappointing.

In MF6+, if you put a mark in the checkbox for "Do not convert compliant video," you will get a popup screen when you import the video file asking if you want to change the project properties to match the source file and perform smart rendering. If you didn't see that message, it probably got rendered by MF6+.

The popup screen doesn't happen for 1920 HQ but it does offer the smart rendering option for HDV. So you could be looking at rendering inside your NLE, and then again at the authoring stage.

There are some tools out there, TSMuxer and TSRemux that do BDMV authoring without re-encoding the video, but I haven't gotten them to work properly with the EX1 (1920 HQ) files.

The only straight from the cam, low end (PC) authoring apps that won't render the whole video seem to require native AVCHD or HDV sources.

There's got to be a workflow for quickly getting non-rendered EX1 native 1920 35 mbps VBR onto a blu-ray disk without rendering at the authoring stage. I think Adobe CS3 and maybe Vegas can support non-rendered 1920 EX1 at the editing stage, so we're halfway there but it's still got to be authored.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

The popup screen doesn't happen for 1920 HQ but it does offer the smart rendering option for HDV. So you could be looking at rendering inside your NLE, and then again at the authoring stage..

Tom,

My experience has been different - I am able to author BDMV discs with MF6+ from m2ts files, written within the iso images by Vegas Pro 8 "burn BD from timeline" from HQ EX1 clips, and without additional rendering in MF6+ (yes, I do have the option checked and yes, it does ask me whether to change project settings to conform with the m2ts file).

[Barry J. Weckesser]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Tom,

My experience has been different - I am able to author BDMV discs with MF6+ from an m2t files, written within the iso images (produced by Vegas Pro 8 "burn BD from timeline" from HQ EX1 clips), and without additional rendering in MF6+ (yes, I do have the option checked and yes, it does ask me whether to change project settings to be identical with the m2t file).

I have had a fair amount of experience with this program using HDV material in .m2t format and I never get the pop-up box with regard to changing project settings etc. and I have never seen it rerender a file (or don't think it has) - I produced a 2 hour project with 6 motion menus (background and thumbnails) and it completed the project in about 3 hours (most of that time was spent rendering the motion menus) - had it rerendered the 2 hour video it probably would have taken 5 or 6 hours just for the video file rendering + additional time for the motion menus.

[Tom Roper]

Barry,
The popup box itself has a checkbox for "Never show this message again." So I agree it doesn't sound like your video is getting rendered, but the popup is my flag for a possible upcoming render if I don't see it.

Then again, you have to make sure the box for do not re-encode compliant video is checked. It probably wouldn't hurt peace of mind to try a short HDV clip to see if the popup box appears. You can skip that, you did say you have experience doing it with HDV so you've answered that already.

Piotr,
Your workflow sounds very interesting to hear more about, like how you extract the .m2ts file from the ISO image? Because if Vegas burns to blu-ray from the timeline, it's becoming blu-ray compliant at that step so it shouldn't need another render thereafter by MF6. So shall I assume you take the extracted .m2ts file from the STREAM folder, and then use MF6 to build your menu structures?

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

So shall I assume you take the extracted .m2ts file from the STREAM folder, and then use MF6 to build your menu structures?

Exactly, Tom - this is what I've been doing with quite good results. Now I'm looking forward to the announced BD authoring functionality within DVDA 5, but the discs authored with MF6+ from Vegas-compiled m2ts in the STREAM folder of iso images are absolutely flawless.

[Barry J. Weckesser]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Exactly, Tom - this is what I've been doing with quite good results. Now I'm looking forward to the announced BD authoring functionality within DVDA 5, but the discs authored with MF6+ from Vegas-compiled m2ts in the STREAM folder of iso images are absolutely flawless.

Piotr - I guess it is a difference in terminology between applications but I tried a test project in Canopus/GV Edius Broadcast of sample .mp4 clips from the Vortex Media disc and transcoded them from the timeline using Procoder 3 (within the Edius program) using the blu-ray presets in Procoder to .m2t (transport stream) but when I import that into MF6 the audio doesn't come with the file(I am using LPCM audio). If I transcode the same project to .m2p - (program stream) the audio is ok in MF6 and the files play through the preview window normally (they are very jerky with the Edius version of "transport stream"). Oddly enough when I have transcoded HDV files to .m2t in Edius these import normally into MF6 and they play normally in the preview window. There is no transcoding(in MF6) with either type of file though. Perhaps the Vegas .m2ts is the equivalent of the Edius .m2p - in any event it works beautifully - images look great on a 73" 1080p Mitsubishi. Hard to believe this can be done with a $ 100 piece of software.

The only popup window I get when I import the files asks me whether I want to use "special processing" in order to have smoother editing and when I click yes it only takes a second or two. I always have the "do not convert compliant MPEG files" box checked.

[Rob Collins]

I'm on Encore (Mac) and Toast 8, and an internal BD drive from Fastmac (their Sata--I had to have it installed by some pros). I use Encore's automatic settings to encode (transcode using their verbiage) my Prores QT files, then make a BD disc image which I burn with Toast. Video looks good. My discs only play on certain BD players, though. Kind of reminds me of the very early DVD days...

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Barry J. Weckesser

Piotr - I guess it is a difference in terminology between applications but I tried a test project in Canopus/GV Edius Broadcast of sample .mp4 clips from the Vortex Media disc and transcoded them from the timeline using Procoder 3 (within the Edius program) using the blu-ray presets in Procoder to .m2t (transport stream) but when I import that into MF6 the audio doesn't come with the file(I am using LPCM audio). If I transcode the same project to .m2p - (program stream) the audio is ok in MF6 and the files play through the preview window normally (they are very jerky with the Edius version of "transport stream"). Oddly enough when I have transcoded HDV files to .m2t in Edius these import normally into MF6 and they play normally in the preview window. There is no transcoding(in MF6) with either type of file though. Perhaps the Vegas .m2ts is the equivalent of the Edius .m2p - in any event it works beautifully - images look great on a 73" 1080p Mitsubishi. Hard to believe this can be done with a $ 100 piece of software.

The only popup window I get when I import the files asks me whether I want to use "special processing" in order to have smoother editing and when I click yes it only takes a second or two. I always have the "do not convert compliant MPEG files" box checked.

Barry,

The confusion can be found in both the terminology and actual formats. I am NOT using m2t, but m2ts files (including also AC3 5.1 audio), as compiled by Vegas and put into the STREAM directory of the BD structure. These files - when open in MF6+ preview window - play both audio and video, and adding chapter points to them is a breeze.

What's interesting, Vegas cannot load and play them properly itself, though! This can give you an idea of the confusion there is between the formats...

FWIW, my first BD's were burned on my Sony Vaio laptop, that came with my first BD burner along with a tiny (proprietary) application called "Click to DVD BD". It also could take my ready m2ts files from Vegas, and being Sony product, even recognized the chapter points encoded in them by Vegas! I only had to compile some menu using those ready chapter points - and burn the disc... They play flawlessly, also on other BD players. No re-encoding was involved, either (in fact, I don't even think this application has any HD encoding capabilities).

[Mike Williams]

That sounds like the most affordable way to start testing the waters Barry. Thanks for the input!

I have a mental block with photoshop and if Encore is like photoshop fugedaboutit. I need a class or something :)

I have no issues opening up my mac so I'll give it a shot.

Thanks again to all, this is an excellent post, IMO

Mike

[Tom Roper]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

FWIW, my first BD's were burned on my Sony Vaio laptop, that came with my first BD burner along with a tiny (proprietary) application called "Click to DVD BD". It also could take my ready m2ts files from Vegas, and being Sony product, even recognized the chapter points encoded in them by Vegas! I only had to compile some menu using those ready chapter points - and burn the disc... They play flawlessly, also on other BD players. No re-encoding was involved, either (in fact, I don't even think this application has any HD encoding capabilities).

Piotr,
Does Vega 8.0 Pro allow you to smart render the simple edits like cuts 'n splices without re-encoding the whole EX1 video? I didn't have enough opportunities during my Vegas 30 day trial to test that.

One other question...when you extract the .m2ts file from the ISO image, are you getting it from the blu-ray disk?

And one more note, just thanks Piotr for your always helpful contributions, really enjoy your postings.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Thanks for the kind words, Tom :)

Unfortunately, we (I mean Vegas users) have not found the way yet to smart render the HQ material from the EX1. In Vegas Pro 8.0b, smart-rendering works OK with HDV, but not yet with 1920x1080 35Mbps VBR (there is a discussion on that issue on the SCS Vegas forum; we hope it'll be possible "really soon now" ;)). But considering there always is a need for something more than just the basic cuts if you're aiming at BD delivery, one full render is necessary in Vegas, anyway...

As to your other question: I don't need to extract the .m2ts' from a physical BD; using Vegas "Burn BD from timeline" tool, you have the option to burn a BD, or just save its iso image on your HDD. Using the latter, I just mount it to a virtual DVD drive (like Daemon Tools, or Nero ImageDrive) - and I can navigate to the STREAM folder from within any authoring application.

[Tom Roper]

If you shoot HQ 1920x1080 24p and export to Blu-ray (from Vegas timeline)...the question is, can you?

In other words, can you burn a native 24p collaboration to Blu-ray without adding the 3:2 pulldown for 60i?