XH-A1 Camera and Burning To Blu-Ray at DVinfo.net

Spiro Kalogeropoulos · January 4th, 2008, 11:30 AM

I hope you don’t mind educating me on the basics of image resolutions, but I didn’t see anything that addressed my question on the various boards. I know that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are still battling it out, but I’d still like to take a look at this format.

Since the Canon XH-A1 shoots in 1080 24f format, does this equate to a 24p in regards to burning the video to a Blu-Ray DVD? I’ve heard of people playing their HDV videos on standard DVDs and being able to play them in their 1080i DVD players or even Blu-Ray players since the player is able to recognize the MPEG-2 file format . So, using a Blu-Ray burner to burn video on a Blu-Ray disc would allow one to get the optimum 1080p image on their HD-TV. Back to my original question, does the XH-A1 record in such a way (1080 24f) that it can be burned to a Blu-Ray disc as 1080p, or will it be 1080i (defeating the purpose of the Blu-Ray burner). Also, is the fact that the Canon shoots in 1440x1080 instead of 1920x1080 have any effect of the image being able to be burned to a Blu-ray disc at 1080p?

Sorry if I’m getting this all confused, I would appreciate if someone could iron this all out for me.

Thanks,

Spiro.

Tom Roper · January 4th, 2008, 07:28 PM

It depends. You should be able to play the native m2t 1440 on the PS3 from a USB drive formatted FAT32, maybe even from a disk if you have the right firmware version. But good luck getting it to play on anything else. And good luck getting it authored onto a BD-R/RE without re-encoding it. And good luck finding a compliant Blu-Ray player that will play BD-R/RE. It is possible to be successful, but impossible to have playback compatibility across the spectrum of Blu-Ray platforms with BD-R/RE.

The HD DVD workflow is infinitely more simple to get the native 1440 m2t authored without re-encoding. And easy to have 5.1 audio as well. The Canon 24F is taylor made for HD DVD. It's true 24 progressive with 3:2 pulldown flags embedded. It will playback perfectly from a Toshiba HD DVD player. Some models offer 1080p24 progressive playback. The advantage Blu-Ray has is the storage capacity on the disk. HD DVD as a general matter limits you to what you can put on a low cost DVD9, about 43-44 minutes.

Spiro Kalogeropoulos · January 4th, 2008, 07:45 PM

Tom,

Thanks for the response. I think I may still be a little confused on this one, and I think I may not have been as detailed in my question I should have been. I'm not sure if maybe you interpreted my first post as meaning that I wanted to take the raw footage from the XH-A1 (I think you called them .m2t files) and burning them diretly onto a Blu-Ray disk to pla via Blu-Ray players.

What I meant to say (in more detail) is that if we take the 1440x1080 (24f) output from the XH-A1 and transfer it to the PC via Firewire cable, run it through Cineform HDV, into VEGAS Pro 8 for editing, and then into a program like HD-DVD-It for DVD authoring, would it be possible to burn (author with menus, buttons, etc) to a Blue Ray DVD and have it display playing through Blue-Ray players as 1080p? I believe you mentioned that the 24f on the XH-A1 was in fact a progressive mode, so that it would be displayed as 1080p when burned to Blu-Ray?

Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks,

Spiro.

Tom Roper · January 4th, 2008, 09:36 PM

No confusion here. It can playback in Canon 24F in 24p mode on Blu-Ray with menus, buttons. You author in BDMV mode.

But can the particular Blu-Ray player in question play writable Blu-Ray disks at all? Not all of them will. That's the catch!

If you have a player that will play writable BD-R/RE media, then that's great! If you intend to distribute your collaboration on writable Blu-Ray media to others, it's going to be hit or miss.

Cary Lee · January 9th, 2008, 12:49 AM

Just to chime in...you might just stick with the Blu-ray format and not the HD-DVD since, I believe the HD-DVD's days are now pretty much numbered.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssC...20151820080108

Tom Roper · January 9th, 2008, 09:14 AM

Cary, Blu-Ray's days are numbered too, optical disk formats are not the future. That said, I would agree that studio support is dead however players will be dual format, meaning there will be a playback device available, those are not going away.

So "sticking with Blu-Ray" (and I do have it) isn't much of anything you can "stick" with at this point, until they make compatibility with writable media a priority. Yes, I can playback .ts on my PS3, and that's probably the most compatible Blu-Ray device option out there due to the sheer numbers of Sony Playstations. I think for many small collaborations, it will make more sense to put 2gb on a disk or flash stick than burn a $15-20 Blu-Ray optical disk that won't play on the majority of the standalone Blu-Ray players anyway.

Noel Evans · January 9th, 2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

It's true 24 progressive with 3:2 pulldown flags embedded.

Sorry Tom I just want to clarify that. 24F is laid to tape as 24 independent frames with no pulldown. The A1 only uses pulldown in the SD modes not HD.

Tom Roper · January 9th, 2008, 09:22 AM

Yes Noel, it is laid to tape as 24 independent frames, but repeat flags are embedded. That's what I meant by pulldown. The mpeg editor can choose to ignore them.

Leo Zheng · January 9th, 2008, 01:27 PM

... other than PS3.

Check this list:

http://forums.support.roxio.com/inde...howtopic=20850

Also I agree blu-ray is way ahead of HD-DVD. Just look at the options we have for blu-ray disc burners and authoring software.

Although I can't answer the original 1080i question.

Tom Roper · January 9th, 2008, 06:30 PM

Leo, when you say you agree blu-ray is way ahead of HD-DVD, are you authoring with HD-DVD yourself?

It is much easier, cheaper and faster! And the collaboration will play on every HD DVD player. It's a good link you posted to the Roxio forums on burning Blu-Ray BDMV with DVDit. But it just confirms what I said, and it confirms what the forum moderator said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS Scott

BDMV on BD-R/RE is a nacsent thing right now. BDMV on BD-R is an optional part of the BD specification. I believe it will be more widely supported in the future as things shake out, until then such discs are really only good if you know for sure where they are being played. Great for tradeshows, lobby video, dailies, personal collections - as long as you are not passing around a disc and hoping it will have wide playback capability.

Noel Evans · January 9th, 2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Yes Noel, it is laid to tape as 24 independent frames, but repeat flags are embedded. That's what I meant by pulldown. The mpeg editor can choose to ignore them.

Not in HD. SD only. There are no flags needed as all thats recorded is 24 individual frames. The flag process only relates to SD on the Canon A1/G1/XLH1.

Spiro Kalogeropoulos · January 9th, 2008, 07:55 PM

Yeah, looking at that Roxio forum link is pretty depressing. Compatibility seemed like it was: yes, yes under certain conditions, no, maybe, sometimes, etc.. It looks like it will be a real back and forth between players having more universal acceptablility of burned Blu-ray disks and burners being updated to keep up with them. By the time it all works out Blu-Ray will probably be giving way to internet accessible content (movies, etc.) direct to your TV (which I believe is what Tom was getting at in his previous post).

So, in lieu of burning my edited 1080p 24f footage from the Canon XH-A1 to a Blu-Ray disc, would I be able to take that footage and burn it to a standard DVD as 1080i and be able to play it back on all standard DVD players that can upconvert to 1080i and have them display on HD TVs successfully? Or would I still be running into certain compatibility issues with certain DVD players? I guess my real question is what is the best way to get the highest possible quality out of the XH-A1 and be able to burn that HD video to a DVD (that you can sell to the general public) that will display most successfully and with the highest quality on most (if not all) of the DVD players out there? Sorry for the basic question as I'm new to this, but I'd like to see if I should go ahead and dump my Sony Blu-Ray burner while I can and still get good $$ for it and just pick up a standard DVD burner. Thanks.

Tom Roper · January 9th, 2008, 08:22 PM

Spiro,
The situation is equally bleak for HD DVD, just for different reasons. It was the far more user friendly format, but it's going to die without studio support.

If your collaboration could justify it, pressed recordings on Blu-Ray would be best for now, achieving compatibility with the bigger audience, in the small fish bowl.

Blu-ray burners are awesome for archiving and personal playback of BDMV, just not distribution.

You are right though. Both formats are destined to extinction or immensely satisfying niche status.

If there was any confusion, you would not be able to display native 1080 resolution on just any upscaling DVD player. It will have to be Blu-Ray or Toshiba's HD DVD (tm) format.

Spiro Kalogeropoulos · January 10th, 2008, 11:40 AM

Understood. Thanks, Tom. So, in order to take advantage of the full native 1080 resolution of the XH-A1 for selling product, it is best to edit the project (Vegas Pro, etc) and then send in the final product to a mastering house or duplication house for proper pressing of a Hi Def DVD (playable in Blu-Ray or HD-DVD)? This would be taking the optimum quality that the camera produces (1080/24f , 30i, 60i) and producing a disc that most/all consumers would be able to use. I hope I’ve got that right.

Any ideas on who the better production houses are out there? I’m sure there are many of them, but I wasn’t sure if there were one or two that really stood out for quality and price.

Tom Roper · January 10th, 2008, 12:13 PM

Spiro,
For Blu-Ray a pressing house I don't know. For HD DVD, http://www.createspace.com/Products/HDDVDOnDemand.jsp has an interesting concept for creating video on demand. Again, the problem for HD DVD unless something changes soon, is it looks like it's going to stall due to the studios switching support.

But if you're collaboration is for profit, I don't see how you can ignore std-def DVD sales, because that's where the volume is. If it is for network distribution, DiscoveryHD for example, you would be supplying it to them on tape anyway, HDCAM, DVCAM etc. (Not HDV).

Edit: here's your blu-ray replication link... http://www.createspace.com/Products/Replication.jsp

January 4th, 2008, 11:30 AM	#1
Spiro Kalogeropoulos Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 36	XH-A1 Camera and Burning To Blu-Ray I hope you don’t mind educating me on the basics of image resolutions, but I didn’t see anything that addressed my question on the various boards. I know that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are still battling it out, but I’d still like to take a look at this format. Since the Canon XH-A1 shoots in 1080 24f format, does this equate to a 24p in regards to burning the video to a Blu-Ray DVD? I’ve heard of people playing their HDV videos on standard DVDs and being able to play them in their 1080i DVD players or even Blu-Ray players since the player is able to recognize the MPEG-2 file format . So, using a Blu-Ray burner to burn video on a Blu-Ray disc would allow one to get the optimum 1080p image on their HD-TV. Back to my original question, does the XH-A1 record in such a way (1080 24f) that it can be burned to a Blu-Ray disc as 1080p, or will it be 1080i (defeating the purpose of the Blu-Ray burner). Also, is the fact that the Canon shoots in 1440x1080 instead of 1920x1080 have any effect of the image being able to be burned to a Blu-ray disc at 1080p? Sorry if I’m getting this all confused, I would appreciate if someone could iron this all out for me. Thanks, Spiro.

January 4th, 2008, 07:45 PM	#3
Spiro Kalogeropoulos Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 36	XH-A1 to BluRay Tom, Thanks for the response. I think I may still be a little confused on this one, and I think I may not have been as detailed in my question I should have been. I'm not sure if maybe you interpreted my first post as meaning that I wanted to take the raw footage from the XH-A1 (I think you called them .m2t files) and burning them diretly onto a Blu-Ray disk to pla via Blu-Ray players. What I meant to say (in more detail) is that if we take the 1440x1080 (24f) output from the XH-A1 and transfer it to the PC via Firewire cable, run it through Cineform HDV, into VEGAS Pro 8 for editing, and then into a program like HD-DVD-It for DVD authoring, would it be possible to burn (author with menus, buttons, etc) to a Blue Ray DVD and have it display playing through Blue-Ray players as 1080p? I believe you mentioned that the 24f on the XH-A1 was in fact a progressive mode, so that it would be displayed as 1080p when burned to Blu-Ray? Sorry for any confusion. Thanks, Spiro.

January 9th, 2008, 12:49 AM	#5
Cary Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood USA Posts: 128	Just to chime in...you might just stick with the Blu-ray format and not the HD-DVD since, I believe the HD-DVD's days are now pretty much numbered. http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssC...20151820080108 __________________ Canon XHA1, SGpro,Flip,FF, RR Mattebox, Nebtek V-R70p-HDA with Canon, Nikkor Primes 24mm f2.8, 28mm f2.8, 35mm f2.0, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f1.4, 105mm f1.8, 135mm f2.0, and 300mm f4.0.

January 9th, 2008, 01:27 PM	#9
Leo Zheng Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 34	I used Roxio DVDit Pro HD to author Blu-ray disc that can play on various devices ... other than PS3. Check this list: http://forums.support.roxio.com/inde...howtopic=20850 Also I agree blu-ray is way ahead of HD-DVD. Just look at the options we have for blu-ray disc burners and authoring software. Although I can't answer the original 1080i question. __________________ Leo

January 9th, 2008, 07:55 PM	#12
Spiro Kalogeropoulos Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 36	Blu-ray or Standard DVD Yeah, looking at that Roxio forum link is pretty depressing. Compatibility seemed like it was: yes, yes under certain conditions, no, maybe, sometimes, etc.. It looks like it will be a real back and forth between players having more universal acceptablility of burned Blu-ray disks and burners being updated to keep up with them. By the time it all works out Blu-Ray will probably be giving way to internet accessible content (movies, etc.) direct to your TV (which I believe is what Tom was getting at in his previous post). So, in lieu of burning my edited 1080p 24f footage from the Canon XH-A1 to a Blu-Ray disc, would I be able to take that footage and burn it to a standard DVD as 1080i and be able to play it back on all standard DVD players that can upconvert to 1080i and have them display on HD TVs successfully? Or would I still be running into certain compatibility issues with certain DVD players? I guess my real question is what is the best way to get the highest possible quality out of the XH-A1 and be able to burn that HD video to a DVD (that you can sell to the general public) that will display most successfully and with the highest quality on most (if not all) of the DVD players out there? Sorry for the basic question as I'm new to this, but I'd like to see if I should go ahead and dump my Sony Blu-Ray burner while I can and still get good $$ for it and just pick up a standard DVD burner. Thanks.

January 4th, 2008, 07:28 PM	#2
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	It depends. You should be able to play the native m2t 1440 on the PS3 from a USB drive formatted FAT32, maybe even from a disk if you have the right firmware version. But good luck getting it to play on anything else. And good luck getting it authored onto a BD-R/RE without re-encoding it. And good luck finding a compliant Blu-Ray player that will play BD-R/RE. It is possible to be successful, but impossible to have playback compatibility across the spectrum of Blu-Ray platforms with BD-R/RE. The HD DVD workflow is infinitely more simple to get the native 1440 m2t authored without re-encoding. And easy to have 5.1 audio as well. The Canon 24F is taylor made for HD DVD. It's true 24 progressive with 3:2 pulldown flags embedded. It will playback perfectly from a Toshiba HD DVD player. Some models offer 1080p24 progressive playback. The advantage Blu-Ray has is the storage capacity on the disk. HD DVD as a general matter limits you to what you can put on a low cost DVD9, about 43-44 minutes.

January 4th, 2008, 09:36 PM	#4
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	No confusion here. It can playback in Canon 24F in 24p mode on Blu-Ray with menus, buttons. You author in BDMV mode. But can the particular Blu-Ray player in question play writable Blu-Ray disks at all? Not all of them will. That's the catch! If you have a player that will play writable BD-R/RE media, then that's great! If you intend to distribute your collaboration on writable Blu-Ray media to others, it's going to be hit or miss.

January 9th, 2008, 09:14 AM	#6
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Cary, Blu-Ray's days are numbered too, optical disk formats are not the future. That said, I would agree that studio support is dead however players will be dual format, meaning there will be a playback device available, those are not going away. So "sticking with Blu-Ray" (and I do have it) isn't much of anything you can "stick" with at this point, until they make compatibility with writable media a priority. Yes, I can playback .ts on my PS3, and that's probably the most compatible Blu-Ray device option out there due to the sheer numbers of Sony Playstations. I think for many small collaborations, it will make more sense to put 2gb on a disk or flash stick than burn a $15-20 Blu-Ray optical disk that won't play on the majority of the standalone Blu-Ray players anyway.

January 9th, 2008, 09:22 AM	#8
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Yes Noel, it is laid to tape as 24 independent frames, but repeat flags are embedded. That's what I meant by pulldown. The mpeg editor can choose to ignore them.

January 9th, 2008, 08:22 PM	#13
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Spiro, The situation is equally bleak for HD DVD, just for different reasons. It was the far more user friendly format, but it's going to die without studio support. If your collaboration could justify it, pressed recordings on Blu-Ray would be best for now, achieving compatibility with the bigger audience, in the small fish bowl. Blu-ray burners are awesome for archiving and personal playback of BDMV, just not distribution. You are right though. Both formats are destined to extinction or immensely satisfying niche status. If there was any confusion, you would not be able to display native 1080 resolution on just any upscaling DVD player. It will have to be Blu-Ray or Toshiba's HD DVD (tm) format.

January 10th, 2008, 11:40 AM	#14
Spiro Kalogeropoulos Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 36	Production Houses Understood. Thanks, Tom. So, in order to take advantage of the full native 1080 resolution of the XH-A1 for selling product, it is best to edit the project (Vegas Pro, etc) and then send in the final product to a mastering house or duplication house for proper pressing of a Hi Def DVD (playable in Blu-Ray or HD-DVD)? This would be taking the optimum quality that the camera produces (1080/24f , 30i, 60i) and producing a disc that most/all consumers would be able to use. I hope I’ve got that right. Any ideas on who the better production houses are out there? I’m sure there are many of them, but I wasn’t sure if there were one or two that really stood out for quality and price.

January 10th, 2008, 12:13 PM	#15
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Spiro, For Blu-Ray a pressing house I don't know. For HD DVD, http://www.createspace.com/Products/HDDVDOnDemand.jsp has an interesting concept for creating video on demand. Again, the problem for HD DVD unless something changes soon, is it looks like it's going to stall due to the studios switching support. But if you're collaboration is for profit, I don't see how you can ignore std-def DVD sales, because that's where the volume is. If it is for network distribution, DiscoveryHD for example, you would be supplying it to them on tape anyway, HDCAM, DVCAM etc. (Not HDV). Edit: here's your blu-ray replication link... http://www.createspace.com/Products/Replication.jsp