New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera!

Thomas Smet · April 17th, 2012, 08:46 AM

But only if you compare it to the full frame Canon cameras. t2i, t3i, 60d, 7d ect users have always had to deal with a crop factor. Sure it wasn't as high at 1.6 but it was still there. I feel at the end of the day the ability to shoot raw and close to uncompressed video at an insane quality level will win out over a sometimes useful creative feature. Also the GH2 which has a crop factor and level of depth of field very similar to the BM camera has shown that very creative results can still happen with that size of a sensor. M43 has been a quality powerhouse and so will this camera. Think of it as where the Gh2 wishes it could be with the hacks.

Thomas Smet · April 17th, 2012, 08:53 AM

Canon may be a bit worried about body sales but this camera is also going to greatly help the sales on their EF lenses. I would argue that camera companies make a heck of a lot more on the lenses then they do the bodies. So while this may take a notch off Canon in terms of pride they can basically sit back and save their RD money and still watch the money roll in as people buy EF lenses in even larger record numbers. At least in the short term until BM supports other lens mounts.

If Panasonic was smart they would call BM right away and add support for M43 lenses to the camera when it ships in July. M43 is already more or less perfect for this camera since they have had to deal with a 2x crop factor. They have a lot of ultra wide lenses that would be a great fit. Then Panasonic could watch their lens sales fly through the roof. Well of course if they could actually produce them fast enough.

Brian Brown · April 17th, 2012, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

But only if you compare it to the full frame Canon cameras. t2i, t3i, 60d, 7d ect users have always had to deal with a crop factor. Sure it wasn't as high at 1.6 but it was still there.

Sure, but the lens manufacturers stepped-up and made super-wide EF-S and DX lenses to give us a 90-100 degree FOV on APS sensors. My Tokina 11-16mm becomes a 25-37mm effective on a 2.3x sensor.

So no one will make a superwide 2.3x crop lens for an EF mount. I agree, the M4/3 mount makes a lot more sense for wide glass. Or c-mount or s-mount to take advantage of all of the S16mm cine lenses that will cover this sensor. This is a cine camera, so no one will care about autofocus and auto exposure of EF and M4/3 lenses.

OTOH, I'd be pleased as punch to mount up a 300mm IS lens (assuming IS will still work) to a 2.3x crop and go film wildlife.

Chris Barcellos · April 17th, 2012, 09:22 AM

I had a dream last night... there I was rummaging through my old equipment closet. Stuff falling on my head. I had just received my new Black Magic camera, and I was trying to match it up with gear I had already.. and off the top shelf falls my old Letus 35mm adapter.... right on my head. There I was, trying to rig something up to work with my 35mm lenses again..... omg.... please help us all...... this is going to be fun...

Murray Christian · April 17th, 2012, 09:32 AM

The crop factor is a worry, but this fuss about XLR inputs on every camera really gets over done sometimes.
I personally have only seen one or two single system shoots in six years, from budgets zero and up. And then it was only abject desperation. In video schools single system is strictly 'Video 101' "in a pinch" and from then on it is multi-system all the way. Colour grading is also in the program usually (and you would have spent some time reading about how it was integral to proper film movie making anyway).
This is of course just me talking, but this camera's feature list lands it pretty much where every media school graduate filmmaker is right now as far as I can see and hits a number of previously expensive aspirations. They know who they are aiming at.

Jerry Porter · April 17th, 2012, 10:39 AM

Hmmmmm....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I had a dream last night... there I was rummaging through my old equipment closet. Stuff falling on my head. I had just received my new Black Magic camera, and I was trying to match it up with gear I had already.. and off the top shelf falls my old Letus 35mm adapter.... right on my head. There I was, trying to rig something up to work with my 35mm lenses again..... omg.... please help us all...... this is going to be fun...

Mark Williams · April 17th, 2012, 10:50 AM

I think the majority of folks attracted to this camera at this price point will be more inclined to purchase used EF mount lenses which there is a "boat load" of out there. I don't think Canon is going to be rewarded by a significant increase in lens sales.

Thomas Smet · April 17th, 2012, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Brown

Sure, but the lens manufacturers stepped-up and made super-wide EF-S and DX lenses to give us a 90-100 degree FOV on APS sensors. My Tokina 11-16mm becomes a 25-37mm effective on a 2.3x sensor.

So no one will make a superwide 2.3x crop lens for an EF mount. I agree, the M4/3 mount makes a lot more sense for wide glass. Or c-mount or s-mount to take advantage of all of the S16mm cine lenses that will cover this sensor. This is a cine camera, so no one will care about autofocus and auto exposure of EF and M4/3 lenses.

OTOH, I'd be pleased as punch to mount up a 300mm IS lens (assuming IS will still work) to a 2.3x crop and go film wildlife.

I heard it is more like 2.1x which is much closer to M43. If they would adapt M43 we would basically be all set. Trust me if this camera is a hit I bet you will start seeing some EF lenses pushed even wider. A camera that sells well is going to attract lens manufacturers. If Canon doesn't then 3rd party will for sure. There has already been word that BM has other mounts including M43 on their list of to do items. Nobody knows if and when that will happen for sure but BM is listening. EF was just the start to get the thing out there and in the hands of pros.

We also have to keep in mind these are not dumb full manual mounts. BM hopes to have full electronic control of the EF lenses including stabilization. They already have full iris control via the touch screen which is impressive. This isn't a $30.00 adapter from Ebay but a serious attempt at full native digital lens control which is not easy to do. If there were not so many darn digital lens mounts this could have been a lot easier. In the meantime there are oodles of EF users who will learn to adapt to the longer FOV and make due.

Brian Brown · April 17th, 2012, 12:01 PM

The trouble with any manufacturer making a super-wide EF lens that only covers this 2.1-2.3x crop sensor from BlackMagic is that it wouldn't ALSO cover the APS-C sensor. 10mm seems to be about the affordable limit right now on the EFS-C.

Now... maybe they can make an EFS-BM mount (or something) to differentiate it, and prevent the chagrin of APS shooters mounting up what they THOUGHT would be a fab rectilinear 6mm UBERwide... and it just shows a big, dark circle. But I can't imagine there's enough BM shooters or sales to justify the R&D. Would LOVE to be proven wrong by this, though.

Chris Frechette · April 17th, 2012, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Williams

I think the majority of folks attracted to this camera at this price point will be more inclined to purchase used EF mount lenses which there is a "boat load" of out there. I don't think Canon is going to be rewarded by a significant increase in lens sales.

On top of this, I think that the more attractive EF lenses to use with this camera are going to come from Tokina, Sigma and Tamron anyway.

Jacques Mersereau · April 17th, 2012, 06:39 PM

I am amazed at what BMD has done. This is the big story this year out of NAB. Out of seemingly nowhere, a 'dark horse' has BLOWN BY the pack and produced a cine camera for $3K with an amazing feature list AND also includes the proven Resolve software to take those 12bit raw files and produce a cinematic look.

Is it perfect? Of course not. I still think RED, Sony and Canon are producing better images, but at 5X-20X more money, I think they should, don't you? As others have pointed out, this camera is really a bit difficult to label, strange even, but it has already moved the ground under the industry's feet - that's for sure - AND we're at V.1 here folks. The future is bright at BMD.

My hat's off to NAB's dark horse winner, Black Magic Design, who in my opinion deserve the award for Best New Product and best DEAL of NAB 2012.

Glen Vandermolen · April 17th, 2012, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

I am amazed at what BMD has done. This is the big story this year out of NAB. Out of seemingly nowhere, a 'dark horse' has BLOWN BY the pack and produced a cine camera for $3K with an amazing feature list AND also includes the proven Resolve software to take those 12bit raw files and produce a cinematic look.

Is it perfect? Of course not. I still think RED, Sony and Canon are producing better images, but at 5X-20X more money, I think they should, don't you? As others have pointed out, this camera is really a bit difficult to label, strange even, but it has already moved the ground under the industry's feet - that's for sure - AND we're at V.1 here folks. The future is bright at BMD.

My hat's off to NAB's dark horse winner, Black Magic Design, who in my opinion deserve the award for Best New Product and best DEAL of NAB 2012.

Agreed. Very well stated.

Jim Giberti · April 17th, 2012, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacques Mersereau

Is it perfect? Of course not. I still think RED, Sony and Canon are producing better images, but at 5X-20X more money, I think they should, don't you? .

No offense intended Jacques but you couldn't know if RED or anyone else is producing better images because we haven't seen any comparisons or any footage from a finished camera.

All that exists now is a little home movie footage shot on an early pre-production model with a sensor that they say wasn't even calibrated yet.

So I agree with your post but I wouldn't assume anything about the quality of the footage until they have some real scenes to show. While the camera itself isn't meant to rival a RED or Alexa, the footage it produces may very well.

Jay Bloomfield · April 17th, 2012, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Fiske

Also, integrated battery is a no go for event work.
BlackMagic Cinema Camera: Whopping 2.5K Resolution for Under $3000

I'm pretty sure that I read that you can attach an external battery pack. It looks like they "glued" a Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 to a lens! The Shuttle also has an integrated battery and a 12v plug for charging or using a battery pack.

Robert Turchick · April 17th, 2012, 09:23 PM

Cant remember where I saw the video but it was an interview with Simon Westland of BMD and yes, the camera can be powered by an external battery and get this...the thunderbolt port if you are tethered to your laptop! The internal battery limitations are moot for me!
The wide angle lens is something of a concern but if I can get to a 28mm (FF DSLR equivalent) I will be happy as that will cover my green screen for full body shooting!
It also has iris control for the Canon lenses which is awesome!
And the fact that I shoot air shows on occasion makes the crop factor very useable. I have a 70-200 f2.8L USMII with 2x extender III waiting to become an 800mm??? Ha Ha Ha!!!
Can't wait!

April 17th, 2012, 08:46 AM	#61
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera! But only if you compare it to the full frame Canon cameras. t2i, t3i, 60d, 7d ect users have always had to deal with a crop factor. Sure it wasn't as high at 1.6 but it was still there. I feel at the end of the day the ability to shoot raw and close to uncompressed video at an insane quality level will win out over a sometimes useful creative feature. Also the GH2 which has a crop factor and level of depth of field very similar to the BM camera has shown that very creative results can still happen with that size of a sensor. M43 has been a quality powerhouse and so will this camera. Think of it as where the Gh2 wishes it could be with the hacks.

April 17th, 2012, 08:53 AM	#62
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera! Canon may be a bit worried about body sales but this camera is also going to greatly help the sales on their EF lenses. I would argue that camera companies make a heck of a lot more on the lenses then they do the bodies. So while this may take a notch off Canon in terms of pride they can basically sit back and save their RD money and still watch the money roll in as people buy EF lenses in even larger record numbers. At least in the short term until BM supports other lens mounts. If Panasonic was smart they would call BM right away and add support for M43 lenses to the camera when it ships in July. M43 is already more or less perfect for this camera since they have had to deal with a 2x crop factor. They have a lot of ultra wide lenses that would be a great fit. Then Panasonic could watch their lens sales fly through the roof. Well of course if they could actually produce them fast enough.

April 17th, 2012, 09:22 AM	#64
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera! I had a dream last night... there I was rummaging through my old equipment closet. Stuff falling on my head. I had just received my new Black Magic camera, and I was trying to match it up with gear I had already.. and off the top shelf falls my old Letus 35mm adapter.... right on my head. There I was, trying to rig something up to work with my 35mm lenses again..... omg.... please help us all...... this is going to be fun... __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

April 17th, 2012, 09:32 AM	#65
Murray Christian Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Perth, Australia Posts: 240	Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera! The crop factor is a worry, but this fuss about XLR inputs on every camera really gets over done sometimes. I personally have only seen one or two single system shoots in six years, from budgets zero and up. And then it was only abject desperation. In video schools single system is strictly 'Video 101' "in a pinch" and from then on it is multi-system all the way. Colour grading is also in the program usually (and you would have spent some time reading about how it was integral to proper film movie making anyway). This is of course just me talking, but this camera's feature list lands it pretty much where every media school graduate filmmaker is right now as far as I can see and hits a number of previously expensive aspirations. They know who they are aiming at.

April 17th, 2012, 10:50 AM	#67
Mark Williams Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Deep South, U.S. Posts: 1,526	Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera! I think the majority of folks attracted to this camera at this price point will be more inclined to purchase used EF mount lenses which there is a "boat load" of out there. I don't think Canon is going to be rewarded by a significant increase in lens sales. __________________ Mark videos: http://vimeo.com/channels/3523 Stock: http://www.pond5.com/artist/mark29

April 17th, 2012, 12:01 PM	#69
Brian Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Estes Park, CO USA Posts: 426	Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera! The trouble with any manufacturer making a super-wide EF lens that only covers this 2.1-2.3x crop sensor from BlackMagic is that it wouldn't ALSO cover the APS-C sensor. 10mm seems to be about the affordable limit right now on the EFS-C. Now... maybe they can make an EFS-BM mount (or something) to differentiate it, and prevent the chagrin of APS shooters mounting up what they THOUGHT would be a fab rectilinear 6mm UBERwide... and it just shows a big, dark circle. But I can't imagine there's enough BM shooters or sales to justify the R&D. Would LOVE to be proven wrong by this, though.

April 17th, 2012, 06:39 PM	#71
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera! I am amazed at what BMD has done. This is the big story this year out of NAB. Out of seemingly nowhere, a 'dark horse' has BLOWN BY the pack and produced a cine camera for $3K with an amazing feature list AND also includes the proven Resolve software to take those 12bit raw files and produce a cinematic look. Is it perfect? Of course not. I still think RED, Sony and Canon are producing better images, but at 5X-20X more money, I think they should, don't you? As others have pointed out, this camera is really a bit difficult to label, strange even, but it has already moved the ground under the industry's feet - that's for sure - AND we're at V.1 here folks. The future is bright at BMD. My hat's off to NAB's dark horse winner, Black Magic Design, who in my opinion deserve the award for Best New Product and best DEAL of NAB 2012. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

April 17th, 2012, 09:23 PM	#75
Robert Turchick Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,389	Re: New! Blackmagic 2.5K Raw cinema camera! Cant remember where I saw the video but it was an interview with Simon Westland of BMD and yes, the camera can be powered by an external battery and get this...the thunderbolt port if you are tethered to your laptop! The internal battery limitations are moot for me! The wide angle lens is something of a concern but if I can get to a 28mm (FF DSLR equivalent) I will be happy as that will cover my green screen for full body shooting! It also has iris control for the Canon lenses which is awesome! And the fact that I shoot air shows on occasion makes the crop factor very useable. I have a 70-200 f2.8L USMII with 2x extender III waiting to become an 800mm??? Ha Ha Ha!!! Can't wait! __________________ The older I get, the better I was!