Miami Vice - The Movie (Shot on High Def)

David Mullen · August 19th, 2006, 07:13 PM

If you're going to be so dismissive of the positive comments & justifications made to date, then why should anyone take the time to further elaborate and debate this with you?

Part of the problem with discussing the HD aspect as a whole is that the photography, good or bad, is not coupled with a good movie, which flavors every discussion. If someone doesn't like a movie, they have a very hard time thinking objectively about the cinematography. With a classic like "The French Connection", it's easier to say positive things about how the photography contributed to the whole. But when you're not talking about a solid script to begin with, then it's very hard to talk about how the photography "worked" when the movie didn't "work", even though the reason it doesn't has nothing really to do with the photography.

Zach Mull · August 20th, 2006, 03:57 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to be dismissive of the positive comments. They were just all about photography and nothing else. I just wondered whether anybody thinks it actually works as a movie or whether they were just impressed with the photography. You may have just answered that.

Alan James · August 21st, 2006, 05:11 AM

I’m still wondering how you make 24p look like 60i. I am making a movie in 24p and I want to add a news scene in the middle and have it look like Miami Vice videoish look. I am wondering what shutter speed they probably used to get the 60i motion blur and movement. My argument as to why I don’t like the photography is because it doesn’t feel or look like the show. And when you are turning a VERY popular show into a movie you have to keep most of the same elements that made the show popular. Sonny wasn’t badass enough, they didn’t wear cool clothes and it took itself to seriously. Of course they couldn’t wear the clothes they wore in the show because they would be out dated, but they should have gone for a nip/tuck sort of look. Comedy was a big part of the show. I mean come on Sonny had an alligator as a pet because he was a gators fan. Big screen adaptations are never as good as the show, that’s just a fact. How bout we develop some creativity again and stop saying “this was popular 20 years ago, lets turn it into a movie” or “this is a cool comic book, lets turn it into a movie” or my favorite “this was a good movie before, lets make it again even though people could go out and rent the better original for cheaper then they would pay us to see our new one that’s isn’t even as good.”

Jaron Berman · August 21st, 2006, 08:40 PM

Zach - good parallel to French Connection...I watched it again a few days ago and never thought to compare them, but you're right, they are similar in many ways. David is absolutely right too, it's a lot harder to speak objectively about a movie which is not destined to be a classic.

As for Miami Vice, I think I'll have to watch it again, perhaps a few times to see if I still enjoy it. Maybe my excitement about the visual side distracted me from the movie itself. I recall that the acting was...forced to put it politely.

Alan - part of the 60i look has less to do with the frame rate so much as the amount of motion captured per frame. Video is essentially an "open eye." Each video frame is comprised two fields of 1/30th of a second each. There is no "shutter" in video, the sensor sees the lens essentially all the time. When shooting 24p video to emulate film, the sensor sees 1/2 of the frame rate. In film, it's a 180 degree shutter ANGLE, meaning that 180 out of the 360 degrees of a circular shutter path, the film is exposed. In 24p, the equivalent is a shutter SPEED of 1/48th or 1/50th. To get that "live" look, try essentially opening the shutter then entire duration of the frame, 1/24th of a second. You'll see that the motion in the frame appears a lot less "filmic" and a lot more TV-like. Also, you'll gain a full stop. Conversely, to get a saving private ryan look, or more stroboscopic look, try closing the shutter down so that more motion happens while the "eye" is blind.

Don Donatello · August 21st, 2006, 11:59 PM

" turning a VERY popular show into a movie you have to keep most of the same elements that made the show popular.".."Big screen adaptations are never as good as the show"

some work - some don't ...
TV shows or remakes carry allot of baggage with them ...

looks like Mann decided to update it ... Miami Vice was his creation back then and maybe he was tired of the that look ( clothes, film etc) as in been there - done that ... but if you look at Manns over the years he's always pushing the limits ... which does create allot of talk about the script, acting, cinematography , wardrobe , audio, production design, editing - all area's of production !!! most movies just generate talk in 1 or 2 area's ...

"Miami Vice played to a racially and ethnically diverse audience divided almost evenly between male and female -- but a whopping 62% of the moviegoers were aged 30 and older. (Must have been the lure of that familiar theme music...) "

well there's the box office PROBLEM "62% aged 30 and older " .. where's the 13-19 year olds ... guess doesn't appeal to them ...
which now i wonder about the AGES here on this thread - do the 30 and above crowd think the over all movie is OK and the younger crowd is going into fine detail of dislikes ...
i can't knock the cinematography .. i found it different, some interesting ..some pushing the limits .. i was slightly entertained . but then i'm in the above 30 crowd - make that about 1.85X the 30 crowd

seems there are 3 ways to look at it ?
does one look at miami vice by itself and you either like it or don't ..either works or doesn't work for you ...

or does one look at it and compare it to other movies out there today or in past and judge it against them .. is there a "standard " to judge/compare against ?

or does one look at it as another painting/piece from mann and compare it to his other movies over the years - is he doing the same thing , is there a growth in his productions ... seems if one thinks Manns a "artist" then one should look at it as a painting - you can like the whole painting and you can dislike certain area's of a painting or you just dislike this painting ?
maybe the next opening will be better , different ?

Luis de la Cerda · August 22nd, 2006, 12:15 AM

I liked it a lot. The visual style, while weird at first, really helped push the envelope in terms of perception, and helped accomplish some very tense moments. The story kept me interested throughout it all. It was more "in your face" reality show like than typical hollywood dramatic musical montage with guns ablaze in all directions, not that there's anything wrong with either when they are well accomplished. It reminded me of another really great film I saw recently... "The death of Mr. Lazarescu", although that one is much more real looking, to the point where I wasn't sure if I was watching a performance or a documentary.

Alan James · August 22nd, 2006, 11:57 AM

I’m 18 and I didn’t like any aspect of the movie but I really disliked the documentary style they shot with (as I have said a few times before). My cinematographer is also 18 and he loved the look and the movie although aside from the look he could not tell me why. So I have found that many people my age are also evenly split about liking it and disliking it although its leaning towards more people disliking it. I’ve made a point of telling my crew to never use infinite focus lenses and always use 1/24 shutter unless otherwise told to avoid the Miami Vide look. This has caused some dispute between me and my Cinematographer but hey I’m the director so its all my call.

Jaron Berman · August 23rd, 2006, 02:48 PM

Alan - if you're shooting 24p at 1/24 shutter speed, it will look VERY video-like, like certain scenes in Miami Vice. If you want the "standard" 24p look, more like film (at 24fps), shoot at 1/48 or 1/50. And I'm guessing that "infinite focus lenses" aren't much of a choice so much as a result of the cameras you're using. 1/3" chips will focus just about everything unless you're very careful about shooting at the very long end of the lens and with a TON of space behind your subject. Don't kill the DP if he/she can't achieve shallow DOF with 1/3" cameras, it's a limitation of the chips, even 2/3".

David Mullen · August 23rd, 2006, 05:36 PM

I agree, shooting 24P at 1/24th creates such a smeary look to fast motion that it resembles interlaced-scan photography almost -- a very UN-film-like effect since a film camera cannot shoot "shutterless" at 24 fps. I'd only use it in an exposure emergency or for shots with almost no motion. 1/32nd or 1/48th would be better for a film-look at 24P.

Luis de la Cerda · August 25th, 2006, 04:55 PM

Life is ironic isn´t it? The Miami Vice TV show was shot on film and the Miami Vice film was shot on video :)

August 19th, 2006, 07:13 PM	#61
David Mullen American Society of Cinematographers Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 123	If you're going to be so dismissive of the positive comments & justifications made to date, then why should anyone take the time to further elaborate and debate this with you? Part of the problem with discussing the HD aspect as a whole is that the photography, good or bad, is not coupled with a good movie, which flavors every discussion. If someone doesn't like a movie, they have a very hard time thinking objectively about the cinematography. With a classic like "The French Connection", it's easier to say positive things about how the photography contributed to the whole. But when you're not talking about a solid script to begin with, then it's very hard to talk about how the photography "worked" when the movie didn't "work", even though the reason it doesn't has nothing really to do with the photography. __________________ David Mullen, ASC Los Angeles

August 23rd, 2006, 05:36 PM	#69
David Mullen American Society of Cinematographers Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 123	I agree, shooting 24P at 1/24th creates such a smeary look to fast motion that it resembles interlaced-scan photography almost -- a very UN-film-like effect since a film camera cannot shoot "shutterless" at 24 fps. I'd only use it in an exposure emergency or for shots with almost no motion. 1/32nd or 1/48th would be better for a film-look at 24P. __________________ David Mullen, ASC Los Angeles

August 20th, 2006, 03:57 PM	#62
Zach Mull Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 273	Sorry, I didn't mean to be dismissive of the positive comments. They were just all about photography and nothing else. I just wondered whether anybody thinks it actually works as a movie or whether they were just impressed with the photography. You may have just answered that.

August 21st, 2006, 05:11 AM	#63
Alan James Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 261	I’m still wondering how you make 24p look like 60i. I am making a movie in 24p and I want to add a news scene in the middle and have it look like Miami Vice videoish look. I am wondering what shutter speed they probably used to get the 60i motion blur and movement. My argument as to why I don’t like the photography is because it doesn’t feel or look like the show. And when you are turning a VERY popular show into a movie you have to keep most of the same elements that made the show popular. Sonny wasn’t badass enough, they didn’t wear cool clothes and it took itself to seriously. Of course they couldn’t wear the clothes they wore in the show because they would be out dated, but they should have gone for a nip/tuck sort of look. Comedy was a big part of the show. I mean come on Sonny had an alligator as a pet because he was a gators fan. Big screen adaptations are never as good as the show, that’s just a fact. How bout we develop some creativity again and stop saying “this was popular 20 years ago, lets turn it into a movie” or “this is a cool comic book, lets turn it into a movie” or my favorite “this was a good movie before, lets make it again even though people could go out and rent the better original for cheaper then they would pay us to see our new one that’s isn’t even as good.”

August 21st, 2006, 08:40 PM	#64
Jaron Berman Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 439	Zach - good parallel to French Connection...I watched it again a few days ago and never thought to compare them, but you're right, they are similar in many ways. David is absolutely right too, it's a lot harder to speak objectively about a movie which is not destined to be a classic. As for Miami Vice, I think I'll have to watch it again, perhaps a few times to see if I still enjoy it. Maybe my excitement about the visual side distracted me from the movie itself. I recall that the acting was...forced to put it politely. Alan - part of the 60i look has less to do with the frame rate so much as the amount of motion captured per frame. Video is essentially an "open eye." Each video frame is comprised two fields of 1/30th of a second each. There is no "shutter" in video, the sensor sees the lens essentially all the time. When shooting 24p video to emulate film, the sensor sees 1/2 of the frame rate. In film, it's a 180 degree shutter ANGLE, meaning that 180 out of the 360 degrees of a circular shutter path, the film is exposed. In 24p, the equivalent is a shutter SPEED of 1/48th or 1/50th. To get that "live" look, try essentially opening the shutter then entire duration of the frame, 1/24th of a second. You'll see that the motion in the frame appears a lot less "filmic" and a lot more TV-like. Also, you'll gain a full stop. Conversely, to get a saving private ryan look, or more stroboscopic look, try closing the shutter down so that more motion happens while the "eye" is blind.

August 21st, 2006, 11:59 PM	#65
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	" turning a VERY popular show into a movie you have to keep most of the same elements that made the show popular.".."Big screen adaptations are never as good as the show" some work - some don't ... TV shows or remakes carry allot of baggage with them ... looks like Mann decided to update it ... Miami Vice was his creation back then and maybe he was tired of the that look ( clothes, film etc) as in been there - done that ... but if you look at Manns over the years he's always pushing the limits ... which does create allot of talk about the script, acting, cinematography , wardrobe , audio, production design, editing - all area's of production !!! most movies just generate talk in 1 or 2 area's ... "Miami Vice played to a racially and ethnically diverse audience divided almost evenly between male and female -- but a whopping 62% of the moviegoers were aged 30 and older. (Must have been the lure of that familiar theme music...) " well there's the box office PROBLEM "62% aged 30 and older " .. where's the 13-19 year olds ... guess doesn't appeal to them ... which now i wonder about the AGES here on this thread - do the 30 and above crowd think the over all movie is OK and the younger crowd is going into fine detail of dislikes ... i can't knock the cinematography .. i found it different, some interesting ..some pushing the limits .. i was slightly entertained . but then i'm in the above 30 crowd - make that about 1.85X the 30 crowd seems there are 3 ways to look at it ? does one look at miami vice by itself and you either like it or don't ..either works or doesn't work for you ... or does one look at it and compare it to other movies out there today or in past and judge it against them .. is there a "standard " to judge/compare against ? or does one look at it as another painting/piece from mann and compare it to his other movies over the years - is he doing the same thing , is there a growth in his productions ... seems if one thinks Manns a "artist" then one should look at it as a painting - you can like the whole painting and you can dislike certain area's of a painting or you just dislike this painting ? maybe the next opening will be better , different ?

August 22nd, 2006, 12:15 AM	#66
Luis de la Cerda Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Mexico City Posts: 181	I liked it a lot. The visual style, while weird at first, really helped push the envelope in terms of perception, and helped accomplish some very tense moments. The story kept me interested throughout it all. It was more "in your face" reality show like than typical hollywood dramatic musical montage with guns ablaze in all directions, not that there's anything wrong with either when they are well accomplished. It reminded me of another really great film I saw recently... "The death of Mr. Lazarescu", although that one is much more real looking, to the point where I wasn't sure if I was watching a performance or a documentary.

August 22nd, 2006, 11:57 AM	#67
Alan James Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 261	I’m 18 and I didn’t like any aspect of the movie but I really disliked the documentary style they shot with (as I have said a few times before). My cinematographer is also 18 and he loved the look and the movie although aside from the look he could not tell me why. So I have found that many people my age are also evenly split about liking it and disliking it although its leaning towards more people disliking it. I’ve made a point of telling my crew to never use infinite focus lenses and always use 1/24 shutter unless otherwise told to avoid the Miami Vide look. This has caused some dispute between me and my Cinematographer but hey I’m the director so its all my call.

August 23rd, 2006, 02:48 PM	#68
Jaron Berman Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 439	Alan - if you're shooting 24p at 1/24 shutter speed, it will look VERY video-like, like certain scenes in Miami Vice. If you want the "standard" 24p look, more like film (at 24fps), shoot at 1/48 or 1/50. And I'm guessing that "infinite focus lenses" aren't much of a choice so much as a result of the cameras you're using. 1/3" chips will focus just about everything unless you're very careful about shooting at the very long end of the lens and with a TON of space behind your subject. Don't kill the DP if he/she can't achieve shallow DOF with 1/3" cameras, it's a limitation of the chips, even 2/3".

August 25th, 2006, 04:55 PM	#70
Luis de la Cerda Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Mexico City Posts: 181	Life is ironic isn´t it? The Miami Vice TV show was shot on film and the Miami Vice film was shot on video :)