a bit of information, if you please :-) at DVinfo.net

Themis Gyparis · June 14th, 2007, 12:41 PM

Hello everyone

I've been into digital editing for many years but always on workstations running software such as Premiere, Edius and recently made the big switch to Final Cut Studio that solved a lot of problems. In the past I tried Avid Xpress Pro (software only) but I have to confess it was different than what I had tried since then.
My question is this: I've seen I/O controllers such as Adrenaline, Nitris, Mojo SDI and recently AJA's. What do these "boxes" do? How do they work? Realtime has always been an issue in editing, which is why editing workstations get help from video cards (in my case, a Matrox RT.X 2 and an Axio for Premiere). These cards allow realtime, render-free preview when the editor uses their settings and effects. Does this also happen with Adrenaline, Nitris or Mojo and at what level? I mean, considering they cost that much, I understand they must offer a preview of almost the most demanding project in real-time? Is that the deal? I am thinking of switching to Avid and I'd like to know a little more. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much in advance

Themis

David Parks · June 14th, 2007, 01:40 PM

http://www.avid.com/products/nleFamily.asp

Avid itself has always been real-time editing, both software and hardware. Whether efx are real-time or not depends on the effect and the hardware you are running on.

Nitris - I/O box for Avid DS and Symphony - DS can handle multiple streams of uncompressed HD along with 2k/4k editiing and tons of efx, color correction. Cost $125,000. For the whole shibang.

Unless you're finishing a major motion picture or HD project, there's no need for that type of Big Iron. It provides HD SDI, SDI, Analog component, AES/EBU, etc. But is the only platform that I know of that will edit 4k in real-time.

Adrenaline costs $30,000 complete, with the HD card. This is the I/O box for Media Composer providing HD SDI, SDI, etc. It compares pretty much with the new Aja I/O box for FCP, but costs a lot more. Adrenaline can handle up to 12 real-time streams, I believe.

Mojo can work with Media Composer or Avid Xpress. It only supports SD and comes in 2 flavors, serial digital and analog component.

Avid does not work with 3rd party I/O boards including Aja and Black Magic.

With these boxes, Avid offers real-time output to an external monitor and video decks. However, if you have the latest Media Composer/Xpresss software only, you can monitor with a good Nvidia card full frame.

Most of the Avid I/O hardware has been out for a few years now, so when the Adrenaline, Nitris, and even Mojo, (portable I/O), first came out they really didn't have any real competition. And unfortunately, the hardware price point hasn't been lowered to match their new current competition. This I believe is a big market positioning mistake on Avid's part. But, also note that Adrenaline and Nitris are sold as complete systems with computers, drives and software. You cannot buy them piece by piece. You can buy Mojo as a seperate piece.

Jiri Bakala · June 14th, 2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Parks

...However, if you have the latest Media Composer/Xpresss software only, you can monitor with a good Nvidia card full frame.

David, could you tell me, please, if this works with a dual monitor setup, where the client monitor would be the third monitor - or only as a second monitor, providing one edits on one monotor only - or - uses full screen playback. Also, can a broadcast/TV/LCD monitor be used or only another computer monitor.

David Parks · June 14th, 2007, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala

David, could you tell me, please, if this works with a dual monitor setup, where the client monitor would be the third monitor - or only as a second monitor, providing one edits on one monotor only - or - uses full screen playback. Also, can a broadcast/TV/LCD monitor be used or only another computer monitor.

Jiri, Sorry, I should have been more accurate. Media Composer/Xpress will output through the DVI port on a Nvidia card only. So, you can have a dual monitor setup where one monitor goes full frame. This is actually the way the old Media Composers worked in the early 90's and there is a command pallette
icon (it is a square with 4 arrows pointing out into the corners from the center) that switches full frame from the composer window. So, a one button/key command. But it will not output a composite signal so no go on the third monitor without at least a Mojo. I have mine setup with bins on one and composer with timeline on the other. And I flip back to full frame on the composer side.

Cheers

Themis Gyparis · June 15th, 2007, 12:50 AM

Hi David

Thank you very much for your information. Well, it seems what you pay for is actually what you get. You're probably right for Avid's commercial mistake. My thought is to go for Aja's I/O with Final Cut Studio as soon as I get the cash. You see, in Europe things are diffferent than in the US. Total cost for a Mac with FC Studio 2 and AJA is close to 8.500 euros, which is around 6.500 $. I'll just wait till prices drop a bit. Your info was very enlightening.

Themis

Thomas Smet · June 15th, 2007, 08:48 AM

There is always Avid Liquid. If you only need SD support you can get Avid Liquid Pro which comes with a hardware box for uncompressed SD in and out. Liquid software itself can already do a lot of stuff in realtime and everything it can do in realtime goes out the component outputs in realtime.

If you need HD then you can look at Liquid Chrome XE which uses the AJA Xena LHE board for uncompressed HD and SD in and out.

Liquid software can also work where a second computer monitor can be used for full HD output. There are two ways to use a second monitor for full screen HD output and they work very well as long as both monitors you use are setup as the same resolution.

Jiri Bakala · June 15th, 2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Parks

But it will not output a composite signal so no go on the third monitor without at least a Mojo.

David, thanks for the reply. When you say ...third monitor without at least a Mojo..., we are still talking only SD, correct? Once you go to HD, Mojo won't really help, will it?

Jiri

David Parks · June 16th, 2007, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala

David, thanks for the reply. When you say ...third monitor without at least a Mojo..., we are still talking only SD, correct? Once you go to HD, Mojo won't really help, will it?

Jiri

Jiri,

Yes you are correct that Mojo only has SD in and outs. In Xpress however, if you're editing in HDV (or HD that was captured on an Adrenanline transferred to Xpress) , the Mojo will downconvert the HD to SD. (Xpress will edit several flavors of DNXHD in 720p and 1080i, you just can't capture into those formats with Mojo which is crazy).

If you think about it, probably 90% of the videos we all produce in HD end up being broadcast in SD or viewed from an SD DVD. So, it is sometimes helpful to see how your HD will look downconverted in SD and in that regard Mojo helps. It all depends on where you're going. Some guys I know shoot local commercial spots in HDV and make their spot dubs in Betacam SP. Mojo works great for those projects.

David

John Mitchell · July 18th, 2007, 08:25 AM

I believe XPro and Mojo combination will only down convert 1080i live. Unless this is something that changed in 5.7.2

Craig Irving · July 18th, 2007, 10:00 AM

Thanks for running through all the different families of Avid products and what they're primarily used for.

I was looking at Avid's website, but it still left me with some questions.

Primarily, what are the main advantages Media Composer has over Avid Xpress Pro?

Also, do they usually get update for new features and bug fixes at the same time? Or is one updated more frequently than the other. It'd be nice if they supported the HVR-V1U's 24P mode sometime soon.

David Parks · July 18th, 2007, 11:23 AM

Craig,

So far as the software versions of Media Composer and Xpress, there are some differences under the hood. I think Media Composer is more responsive and stable than Xpress. Media Composer interface also is more customizable. Also, MC is much stronger at Script-based editing and collaboration. MC has new voice recognition software for syncing scripts called ScriptSync. Really cool if your doing film work. But updates and bug fixes don't come at the same time and both platforms seem to be on a different update schedule. Main difference is cost. Media Composer just under $5k and Xpress $1,599.00. If your not doing film origination, features, or High-end commercials, or operating a post facility,,,I would go with Xpress. You may not see any real benefit from the more than double the cost for MC.

For the V1U there is an Avid workflow available from Steve Mullen. Search all his posts and you should get some better insight.

Craig Irving · July 18th, 2007, 12:56 PM

Yeah I've been trying to work through some of the kinks with that workflow. We're discussing it in the Sony V1U/FX7 forum right now.

While DVFilm Maker is a great tool for doing a conversion of footage that was shot at 60i and exporting it as 24p, it still doesn't seem to be the best option for getting the original 24p frames that are simply stored inside a 60i file (pulldown added).

Which is why I'm eager for Avid to support the V1U natively :)

Armando Serrano · August 26th, 2007, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Parks

Jiri,

Yes you are correct that Mojo only has SD in and outs. In Xpress however, if you're editing in HDV (or HD that was captured on an Adrenanline transferred to Xpress) , the Mojo will downconvert the HD to SD. (Xpress will edit several flavors of DNXHD in 720p and 1080i, you just can't capture into those formats with Mojo which is crazy).

If you think about it, probably 90% of the videos we all produce in HD end up being broadcast in SD or viewed from an SD DVD. So, it is sometimes helpful to see how your HD will look downconverted in SD and in that regard Mojo helps. It all depends on where you're going. Some guys I know shoot local commercial spots in HDV and make their spot dubs in Betacam SP. Mojo works great for those projects.

David

Hi David!

I have an opportunity to buy the Avid Mojo SDI along with the Avid Xpress Pro HD 5.7 as a bundled package to edit the HD video footage I shoot with my Canon XH A1. My question is; "What is the best PC/Windows solution (hardware/software) to edit my HD footage? I plan to post my videos as flash on my websites...

Any comments or suggestions will be greatly apprecaited! ; )

Thanks!

Armando

Jeff Cerar · August 27th, 2007, 03:14 AM

This might come in handy...

http://www.avid.com/content/10823/Co...on%20Chart.pdf

June 14th, 2007, 12:41 PM	#1
Themis Gyparis Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 91	a bit of information, if you please :-) Hello everyone I've been into digital editing for many years but always on workstations running software such as Premiere, Edius and recently made the big switch to Final Cut Studio that solved a lot of problems. In the past I tried Avid Xpress Pro (software only) but I have to confess it was different than what I had tried since then. My question is this: I've seen I/O controllers such as Adrenaline, Nitris, Mojo SDI and recently AJA's. What do these "boxes" do? How do they work? Realtime has always been an issue in editing, which is why editing workstations get help from video cards (in my case, a Matrox RT.X 2 and an Axio for Premiere). These cards allow realtime, render-free preview when the editor uses their settings and effects. Does this also happen with Adrenaline, Nitris or Mojo and at what level? I mean, considering they cost that much, I understand they must offer a preview of almost the most demanding project in real-time? Is that the deal? I am thinking of switching to Avid and I'd like to know a little more. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much in advance Themis

June 14th, 2007, 01:40 PM	#2
David Parks Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 789	Pick you price http://www.avid.com/products/nleFamily.asp Avid itself has always been real-time editing, both software and hardware. Whether efx are real-time or not depends on the effect and the hardware you are running on. Nitris - I/O box for Avid DS and Symphony - DS can handle multiple streams of uncompressed HD along with 2k/4k editiing and tons of efx, color correction. Cost $125,000. For the whole shibang. Unless you're finishing a major motion picture or HD project, there's no need for that type of Big Iron. It provides HD SDI, SDI, Analog component, AES/EBU, etc. But is the only platform that I know of that will edit 4k in real-time. Adrenaline costs $30,000 complete, with the HD card. This is the I/O box for Media Composer providing HD SDI, SDI, etc. It compares pretty much with the new Aja I/O box for FCP, but costs a lot more. Adrenaline can handle up to 12 real-time streams, I believe. Mojo can work with Media Composer or Avid Xpress. It only supports SD and comes in 2 flavors, serial digital and analog component. Avid does not work with 3rd party I/O boards including Aja and Black Magic. With these boxes, Avid offers real-time output to an external monitor and video decks. However, if you have the latest Media Composer/Xpresss software only, you can monitor with a good Nvidia card full frame. Most of the Avid I/O hardware has been out for a few years now, so when the Adrenaline, Nitris, and even Mojo, (portable I/O), first came out they really didn't have any real competition. And unfortunately, the hardware price point hasn't been lowered to match their new current competition. This I believe is a big market positioning mistake on Avid's part. But, also note that Adrenaline and Nitris are sold as complete systems with computers, drives and software. You cannot buy them piece by piece. You can buy Mojo as a seperate piece. __________________ David Parks: DP/Editor: Jacobs Aerospace at NASA Johnson Space Center https://www.youtube.com/user/JacobsESCG

June 15th, 2007, 12:50 AM	#5
Themis Gyparis Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 91	thanks Hi David Thank you very much for your information. Well, it seems what you pay for is actually what you get. You're probably right for Avid's commercial mistake. My thought is to go for Aja's I/O with Final Cut Studio as soon as I get the cash. You see, in Europe things are diffferent than in the US. Total cost for a Mac with FC Studio 2 and AJA is close to 8.500 euros, which is around 6.500 $. I'll just wait till prices drop a bit. Your info was very enlightening. Themis

July 18th, 2007, 11:23 AM	#11
David Parks Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 789	Craig, So far as the software versions of Media Composer and Xpress, there are some differences under the hood. I think Media Composer is more responsive and stable than Xpress. Media Composer interface also is more customizable. Also, MC is much stronger at Script-based editing and collaboration. MC has new voice recognition software for syncing scripts called ScriptSync. Really cool if your doing film work. But updates and bug fixes don't come at the same time and both platforms seem to be on a different update schedule. Main difference is cost. Media Composer just under $5k and Xpress $1,599.00. If your not doing film origination, features, or High-end commercials, or operating a post facility,,,I would go with Xpress. You may not see any real benefit from the more than double the cost for MC. For the V1U there is an Avid workflow available from Steve Mullen. Search all his posts and you should get some better insight. __________________ David Parks: DP/Editor: Jacobs Aerospace at NASA Johnson Space Center https://www.youtube.com/user/JacobsESCG

August 27th, 2007, 03:14 AM	#14
Jeff Cerar Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Studio City CA Posts: 45	Media Composer and Xpress Pro Feature Comparisons This might come in handy... http://www.avid.com/content/10823/Co...on%20Chart.pdf

June 15th, 2007, 08:48 AM	#6
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	There is always Avid Liquid. If you only need SD support you can get Avid Liquid Pro which comes with a hardware box for uncompressed SD in and out. Liquid software itself can already do a lot of stuff in realtime and everything it can do in realtime goes out the component outputs in realtime. If you need HD then you can look at Liquid Chrome XE which uses the AJA Xena LHE board for uncompressed HD and SD in and out. Liquid software can also work where a second computer monitor can be used for full HD output. There are two ways to use a second monitor for full screen HD output and they work very well as long as both monitors you use are setup as the same resolution.

July 18th, 2007, 08:25 AM	#9
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	I believe XPro and Mojo combination will only down convert 1080i live. Unless this is something that changed in 5.7.2

July 18th, 2007, 10:00 AM	#10
Craig Irving Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 539	Thanks for running through all the different families of Avid products and what they're primarily used for. I was looking at Avid's website, but it still left me with some questions. Primarily, what are the main advantages Media Composer has over Avid Xpress Pro? Also, do they usually get update for new features and bug fixes at the same time? Or is one updated more frequently than the other. It'd be nice if they supported the HVR-V1U's 24P mode sometime soon.

July 18th, 2007, 12:56 PM	#12
Craig Irving Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 539	Yeah I've been trying to work through some of the kinks with that workflow. We're discussing it in the Sony V1U/FX7 forum right now. While DVFilm Maker is a great tool for doing a conversion of footage that was shot at 60i and exporting it as 24p, it still doesn't seem to be the best option for getting the original 24p frames that are simply stored inside a 60i file (pulldown added). Which is why I'm eager for Avid to support the V1U natively :)