More bad news about 720p25 from Avid at DVinfo.net

Paul Jefferies · February 6th, 2007, 06:16 PM

Hi,
I posted this thread last November:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77766
At that time, Avid was promising the 720p25 upgrade for 1st Quarter 2007. Well, guess what? I went to another trade show today, and surprise surprise, the Avid demonstrators told me that, although their next release will have 720p50 support, there will be no support for 720p25 until at least the release after that, which they guess will be some time around late summer 2007 (i.e they have no idea when it is coming, if in fact it is coming at all). It goes without saying that some other people exhibiting at the show - who I won't name - were less than happy about this (in fact they were pretty furious) and I'm pretty furious too, having £5000 tied up in an edit system which I can't properly use with my camera, despite two years of broken promises.
I apologise for the angry tone of this post, but I'm pretty angry at the moment...

Phil Bloom · February 6th, 2007, 06:25 PM

was that at earls court? i was there today. That's crap. is the xpress pro or media composer or both?

i have just bought a 201, will it be fine with final cut pro?

Paul Jefferies · February 6th, 2007, 06:49 PM

Yes, Video Forum at Earls Court. I only asked about xpress pro. You should be fine with final cut (or practically any other edit system!)

Jack Walker · February 6th, 2007, 08:38 PM

Coincidentally, there was an annoucement today at a presentation that Edius 4.1 is coming out as well as Procoder 3:
http://www.videomaker.com/blog/2007/...coder-30-in-us

Could be that Grass valley is going to be an increasing figure on the new format market.

With the new cameras coming out, the new format configurations (such as with the V1 progressive), I think there are increasingly going to be better NLE choices than Avid... that is, I think Avid's arrogance is going to start to do them in.

And I think prices will continue to drop on the newer code, cutting edge editors needed by HDV production companies and producers.

I think the market is changing (and growing) -- one example, the new marketing strategy by Digital Juice of making their product available to thousands more users at incredibly discounted prices.

I fantasize that someone is sitting on the sideline with a technology and workflow that is going to blow the doors off the current feature film workflow on Avids.

Shaun Wilson · February 7th, 2007, 12:30 AM

This had really better be not true. I'm getting more and more disgusted with a company that is supposed to be the industry leader, and instead are starting to lag literal years behind.

Paul Jefferies · February 7th, 2007, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun Wilson

This had really better be not true. I'm getting more and more disgusted with a company that is supposed to be the industry leader, and instead are starting to lag literal years behind.

I wish it wasn't true, too. But as this information comes from an Avid employee who was publically demonstrating their products at one of the main video events in London, I have to say its a pretty informed source.

This news helps to explain some of the comments that have been posted on Avids own forum about this matter - whenever anyone posts the question "when is 720p25 coming" the answer is always "720p50 is just around the corner" i.e they avoid the question entirely!

Steve Benner · February 7th, 2007, 05:26 AM

Did you ask about 720/24P?

Antony Michael Wilson · February 7th, 2007, 10:43 AM

I'm almost 100% that this information is correct. Avid apps (excluding Liquid and DS) are a family and are developed together so this sad news means Xpress Pro, Media Composer (soft and Adrenaline) and Symphony Nitris. It also applies to 720p/24 HDV1. It looks like Avid will release 720p/50 project types and support for DVCProHD. Native HDV1 support (i.e. native ingest over firewire) will not be included within the capabilities of the 720p/50 project type, so it's no help for HD200 or 250 owners shooting 50fps unless they are happy to transcode to DNx first. Those wishing to work 720p/25 are as stuck as ever and 24P guys will have to use the existing 720p/24 project type with no native HDV1 ingest.

In the meantime, the only viable and efficient HD post solution for HDV1-acquired material at 24 or 25fps on Avid kit, is to use MC Adrenaline + optional HD board or Symph Nitris together with the HDConnect box, which will give you real-time HDV1 to baseband HDSDI 1080i (PsF, of course) into a 1080p or 1080i Avid project. You can also use such a box for SD down-converts to SD SDI into non-HD MC Adrenaline, Mojo SDI or SD YUV into the analogue Mojo.

It's a disgrace, frankly. As I keep saying, I was at IBC in 2005 (that's Amsterdam, Europe where PAL is the weapon of choice) where Avid had an official presence on the JVC stand and an Avid rep told me to my face that full HDV1 support would be there by the end of 2005. Now I'm beginning to take the conspiracy theories on this a little more seriously. JVC really must be furious.

I like your optimism, Jack, but - in Europe at least - Avid is a long, long way from being under any threat whatsoever in the broadcast and facility market from Edius, Vegas or Premiere. FCP is making serious in-roads in the corporate market here in the UK but Avid still rules the roost over here. Very few people I work for/with in Europe have even heard of Canopus or Edius. There is nothing meritocratic about the post market where kit is concerned - especially in London. Here, in the broadcast world, Avid is synonymous with 'Edit' now and I strongly suspect that lack of support for a JVC camera (nearly everyone uses Sony) will do very little to damage Avid's standing amongst the hardcore of its customers. It's terrible, I know.

If enough people in North America move away from Avid in the long term then maybe we will see a paradigm shift here but this HDV1 thing really is just a drop in the ocean - unless you happen to want to shoot HDV1 and love the cameras like we do!

Mark Silva · February 7th, 2007, 11:57 AM

I cannot stand Avid and I'm very proud of the fact I have not used any of their systems for the last 6 years.

I hope they fail hard and lose market share.

Antony Michael Wilson · February 7th, 2007, 12:22 PM

I hear you, Mark, but I still haven't found anything better than Avid for 90% of what we do - and I've tried many NLEs.

All the same, I absoutely refuse to let Avid spoil the HDxxx series for us. These are great little cameras and I'm just continuing to use our work-around and cutting on Avid.

Richard Alvarez · February 7th, 2007, 12:27 PM

Well, depending on how you look at it, AVID is 'gaining' market share. They 'gained' a huge chunk of the 'prosumer' world when the acquired LIQUID and they're still the main choice for more than ninety percent of the Movies and Television produced. (That's why it's such a big deal when a feature is cut on FCP,... it's just done so seldom.)

There's no question that the 'boutique' market is the red headed step child of AVID. And I think it's going to bite them in the long run. Just how 'long' a run that is, is the question.

Antony Michael Wilson · February 7th, 2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Alvarez

There's no question that the 'boutique' market is the red headed step child of AVID. And I think it's going to bite them in the long run. Just how 'long' a run that is, is the question.

Well said, Richard.

Richard Alvarez · February 7th, 2007, 03:36 PM

Don't get me wrong, I love AVID, and here in NTSC land, the whole 25p issue is not high on my priority... but I'm not sure what AVID is thinking the way the do treat the prosumer/boutique needs. I think the next year will be an important one in market trends.

Gary Williams · February 8th, 2007, 09:06 AM

I think in april at the NAB you will see apple take a strong jump with a new version of final cut pro and possibly new note books with hdv burners and new intel chips apple is the company to watch this spring, there going to take a large share of the market over the next two years and I think avid will start to lose a large share. (Lets watch and see)

Richard Alvarez · February 8th, 2007, 10:14 AM

Well, define "Market". And then define "Large Share". FCP has fewer units than Premier 'in the Market'.(If by market you mean consumer video) If "the market" is FILM and BROADCAST, then it's not going to turn in a year or two. If "the market" is 'independent filmmakers/small add agencies/ boutique productions houses' the FCP HAS that share over Avid. So I'm not sure where such advances would make the dent.

There are big changes in the air for a lot of NLE's - AVID included. But the next year will be one to watch, for sure.

February 6th, 2007, 06:16 PM	#1
Paul Jefferies Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Croydon, England Posts: 277	More bad news about 720p25 from Avid Hi, I posted this thread last November: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=77766 At that time, Avid was promising the 720p25 upgrade for 1st Quarter 2007. Well, guess what? I went to another trade show today, and surprise surprise, the Avid demonstrators told me that, although their next release will have 720p50 support, there will be no support for 720p25 until at least the release after that, which they guess will be some time around late summer 2007 (i.e they have no idea when it is coming, if in fact it is coming at all). It goes without saying that some other people exhibiting at the show - who I won't name - were less than happy about this (in fact they were pretty furious) and I'm pretty furious too, having £5000 tied up in an edit system which I can't properly use with my camera, despite two years of broken promises. I apologise for the angry tone of this post, but I'm pretty angry at the moment...

February 6th, 2007, 06:25 PM	#2
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	was that at earls court? i was there today. That's crap. is the xpress pro or media composer or both? i have just bought a 201, will it be fine with final cut pro? __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

February 7th, 2007, 10:43 AM	#8
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	I'm almost 100% that this information is correct. Avid apps (excluding Liquid and DS) are a family and are developed together so this sad news means Xpress Pro, Media Composer (soft and Adrenaline) and Symphony Nitris. It also applies to 720p/24 HDV1. It looks like Avid will release 720p/50 project types and support for DVCProHD. Native HDV1 support (i.e. native ingest over firewire) will not be included within the capabilities of the 720p/50 project type, so it's no help for HD200 or 250 owners shooting 50fps unless they are happy to transcode to DNx first. Those wishing to work 720p/25 are as stuck as ever and 24P guys will have to use the existing 720p/24 project type with no native HDV1 ingest. In the meantime, the only viable and efficient HD post solution for HDV1-acquired material at 24 or 25fps on Avid kit, is to use MC Adrenaline + optional HD board or Symph Nitris together with the HDConnect box, which will give you real-time HDV1 to baseband HDSDI 1080i (PsF, of course) into a 1080p or 1080i Avid project. You can also use such a box for SD down-converts to SD SDI into non-HD MC Adrenaline, Mojo SDI or SD YUV into the analogue Mojo. It's a disgrace, frankly. As I keep saying, I was at IBC in 2005 (that's Amsterdam, Europe where PAL is the weapon of choice) where Avid had an official presence on the JVC stand and an Avid rep told me to my face that full HDV1 support would be there by the end of 2005. Now I'm beginning to take the conspiracy theories on this a little more seriously. JVC really must be furious. I like your optimism, Jack, but - in Europe at least - Avid is a long, long way from being under any threat whatsoever in the broadcast and facility market from Edius, Vegas or Premiere. FCP is making serious in-roads in the corporate market here in the UK but Avid still rules the roost over here. Very few people I work for/with in Europe have even heard of Canopus or Edius. There is nothing meritocratic about the post market where kit is concerned - especially in London. Here, in the broadcast world, Avid is synonymous with 'Edit' now and I strongly suspect that lack of support for a JVC camera (nearly everyone uses Sony) will do very little to damage Avid's standing amongst the hardcore of its customers. It's terrible, I know. If enough people in North America move away from Avid in the long term then maybe we will see a paradigm shift here but this HDV1 thing really is just a drop in the ocean - unless you happen to want to shoot HDV1 and love the cameras like we do! Last edited by Antony Michael Wilson; February 7th, 2007 at 12:18 PM.

February 6th, 2007, 06:49 PM	#3
Paul Jefferies Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Croydon, England Posts: 277	Yes, Video Forum at Earls Court. I only asked about xpress pro. You should be fine with final cut (or practically any other edit system!)

February 6th, 2007, 08:38 PM	#4
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Coincidentally, there was an annoucement today at a presentation that Edius 4.1 is coming out as well as Procoder 3: http://www.videomaker.com/blog/2007/...coder-30-in-us Could be that Grass valley is going to be an increasing figure on the new format market. With the new cameras coming out, the new format configurations (such as with the V1 progressive), I think there are increasingly going to be better NLE choices than Avid... that is, I think Avid's arrogance is going to start to do them in. And I think prices will continue to drop on the newer code, cutting edge editors needed by HDV production companies and producers. I think the market is changing (and growing) -- one example, the new marketing strategy by Digital Juice of making their product available to thousands more users at incredibly discounted prices. I fantasize that someone is sitting on the sideline with a technology and workflow that is going to blow the doors off the current feature film workflow on Avids.

February 7th, 2007, 12:30 AM	#5
Shaun Wilson Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hobart, Australia Posts: 41	This had really better be not true. I'm getting more and more disgusted with a company that is supposed to be the industry leader, and instead are starting to lag literal years behind.

February 7th, 2007, 05:26 AM	#7
Steve Benner Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 590	Did you ask about 720/24P?

February 7th, 2007, 11:57 AM	#9
Mark Silva Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 431	I cannot stand Avid and I'm very proud of the fact I have not used any of their systems for the last 6 years. I hope they fail hard and lose market share.

February 7th, 2007, 12:22 PM	#10
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	I hear you, Mark, but I still haven't found anything better than Avid for 90% of what we do - and I've tried many NLEs. All the same, I absoutely refuse to let Avid spoil the HDxxx series for us. These are great little cameras and I'm just continuing to use our work-around and cutting on Avid.

February 7th, 2007, 12:27 PM	#11
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Well, depending on how you look at it, AVID is 'gaining' market share. They 'gained' a huge chunk of the 'prosumer' world when the acquired LIQUID and they're still the main choice for more than ninety percent of the Movies and Television produced. (That's why it's such a big deal when a feature is cut on FCP,... it's just done so seldom.) There's no question that the 'boutique' market is the red headed step child of AVID. And I think it's going to bite them in the long run. Just how 'long' a run that is, is the question.

February 7th, 2007, 03:36 PM	#13
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Don't get me wrong, I love AVID, and here in NTSC land, the whole 25p issue is not high on my priority... but I'm not sure what AVID is thinking the way the do treat the prosumer/boutique needs. I think the next year will be an important one in market trends.

February 8th, 2007, 09:06 AM	#14
Gary Williams Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rocklin, California Posts: 287	I think in april at the NAB you will see apple take a strong jump with a new version of final cut pro and possibly new note books with hdv burners and new intel chips apple is the company to watch this spring, there going to take a large share of the market over the next two years and I think avid will start to lose a large share. (Lets watch and see)

February 8th, 2007, 10:14 AM	#15
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Well, define "Market". And then define "Large Share". FCP has fewer units than Premier 'in the Market'.(If by market you mean consumer video) If "the market" is FILM and BROADCAST, then it's not going to turn in a year or two. If "the market" is 'independent filmmakers/small add agencies/ boutique productions houses' the FCP HAS that share over Avid. So I'm not sure where such advances would make the dent. There are big changes in the air for a lot of NLE's - AVID included. But the next year will be one to watch, for sure.