More bad news about 720p25 from Avid

[David Parks]

Originally Posted by Gary Williams

I think in april at the NAB you will see apple take a strong jump with a new version of final cut pro and possibly new note books with hdv burners and new intel chips apple is the company to watch this spring, there going to take a large share of the market over the next two years and I think avid will start to lose a large share. (Lets watch and see)

HDV burners?? I assume that you mean Blue Ray or HD DVD. As far as Avid goes I've been a little frustrated with their approach or lack thereof for HDV1,specifically 24p. They support HDV2 pretty well . But Avid makes by far most of their money on Big Iron. That includes the federal government buying forensic software and Unity media servers that they can sell for over $200k a pop.

They seem to be willing to let the small boutique market go to FCP and hope Liquid can semi compete. So far as losing market share you have to consider which market. The large post houses in New York and LA are still Avid, and by far most broadcast TV shows and feature films are cut on Avid. Avid has a whole slew of products from news automation, playout servers, to 3D animation software to Pro Tools audio. NLE products are a drop in the bucket.

Avid is a big boat and sometimes it takes awhile for it to turn. And it seems at least to me that they prioritize their strategic relationship with Sony and Panasonic before JVC.

But as of yet IMO nobody beats Avid when it comes to media management. Of course I may end up on FCP a year from now if Avid doesn't deliver 720/24.

[Paul Jefferies]

The issue for me is not whether or not Avid supports a format - its the fact that they keep making promises and not delivering. It's always "next quarter" or "In the New year". If they had said two years ago "We'll have it in 2008" We wouldn't need to be having this discussion - we would have accepted the fact and moved on. It's the constant avoidance and misinformation which is really infuriating!

[Shaun Wilson]

It really does upset me that they are devoting their clearly limited base of engineers to all sorts of new stuff when they haven't even finished what's there.

Someone needs to tell Avid that pretty new features may get you attention at NAB, but it's actually being able to cut the footage your camera shoots that gets and keeps you customers.

[Gary Williams]

I agree with all of you and personaly if final cut pro comes out in april and it can edit 24p with no lag in audio or droped frames and thier note books come out with hdv burners or blueray which is what apples supports and they have the new intel chips in them then I will definitly take the plunge and buy both and as far as avid goes well I will let you fill in the blanks. I have alot of footage shot with my hd100 and I am still waiting for a software program that can do the job accross the board and then burn it to HDV. I am banking on apple to do the job ( we will see )

[Jiri Bakala]

You are not kidding. I am still trying to hang on to the fence I am sitting on but unless Avid delivers real soon (and I mean real soon!) I will be buying a Decklink card and FCP Studio (for half the money than what I already spent on AXP & Mojo) and Avid can go ... yes, I like that; fill the blanks.

Oh, and when it comes to market shares. Hmm, well, the NLE might be a relatively small market but it is the market from which new generations of editors come. And those are some of the guys and gals that will eventually end up in big post houses, film studios and tv networks. And if they grow up on FCP and love it, they will bring it to their respective workplaces and Avid will really star loosing the market, except this time it will be for a real. In fact, it's already happening.

[Mike Schrengohst]

I can edit DVCPRO HD on my G4 laptop at client locations using G-RAID 800 Firewire drives with no dropped frames?? 720 25p as well?
I cannot wait to see what FCP features are unleashed at NAB.

[Antony Michael Wilson]

I won't go into the details again here but this 720p/25 and 24 thing for HDV1 at Avid just has to be political now. It is most certainly in their power to deliver it and to deliver it well. They've been 'working on it' since late 2005, so what's the delay? The answer is simply that it is not a priority for them. Why?

I agree that it's the false promises that are most frustrating. If they had taken the position from the start - just for example - that 720p/25 is not a recognised broadcast standard and for that reason support would not be forthcoming, at least everyone would have known where they stood. Armed with that information, one could then decide not to shoot HDV1 or switch post methods/kit.

[Mike Paterson]

I wasn't going to go to Video Forum, but after reading this thread I went along yesterday just express my opinion in no uncertain manner to Avid in person. I felt a bit sorry for the guys on the stand as they had clearly been getting an earful from everyone at the show about 720/25p. I'm amazed at their attitude and apparent complete lack of interest in communicating with and supporting their PAL customers.

Antony - I entirely agree that this has the whiff of politics. Particularly when you consider that other 720p framerates have been supported for ages. Why not 25p?

[Mark Silva]

Originally Posted by Mike Paterson

I'm amazed at their attitude and apparent complete lack of interest in communicating with and supporting their PAL customers.

I don't get that at all either.

Its like they don't want the business of the other half of the world.

Hell even FCP was behind in 25p PAL developments.

Whats up with that?

[Antony Michael Wilson]

One explanation is that 720p/25 just isn't a recognised broadcast standard. Even if the EBU bangs on about 720p, the fact is that no significant European HD broadcaster will accept anything other than 1080i. Furthermore, there are also no real mastering formats even for 720p/50 (I know of no significant HD broadcaster that accepts DVCPro HD for master delivery in the EU). This is very different from North America, where 720p/60 is reasonably established. This - to some extent - excuses Avid's late development of 720p in general.

However, the continuing lack of native HDV1 development by Avid is another issue. From the start, Avid promised support. Hell, their logo was even on the camera box on units sold in Europe. And - as I keep saying - they had a distinct, branded presence on the HD100 section of the JVC stand at IBC 2005, where they were showing Avid working with 720p/30 HDV1 and boldly proclaiming forthcoming support for 24 and 24fps. Clearly, it has been and still is easily within Avid's considerable power to implement further support for native HDV1 and 720p in general. Avid is famous for late development and - often - this is because they tend to do things right, even if it takes a little longer than the competition. All the same the sheer scale of this delay on HDV1 development smacks of politics. XDCAM support and - to a lesser extent - DVCPro HD and P2 support have been given a great deal more attention by Avid. It is hard to come to any other conclusion than that the delays are, at best, due to a surprising lack of internal resources or, worse still, a deliberate policy to prioritise EVERY new format and development thereof over HDV1 - even though many came to market long after HDV1. Simply put, Sony and Panasonic command a much larger share of the market across the board and continue to be given a much higher priority - even to the point of active exclusion of the format.

[Shaun Wilson]

I don't mind if I have to work in a 720p50 project, as long as I can ingest 720p25 HDV1 over firewire and use it natively in that project. Hell, simply being able to directly import a 720p25 HDV m2t stream (transcoding to DNxHD) would at least be a start.

[Steve Oakley]

FWIW, Avid is only hanging on in broadcast plants because
1. they have an established infrastructure - unity share, edit stations, ect. the networks aren't going to trash that. This is the direct word from an an engineer at one of the NYC networks " We'd dump avid in a minute if it weren't for all the installed infrastructure and media files we have haning around"
2. FUD. lots places that have been avid only and never used another NLE just don't understand there is better out there.
3. Airplay and news edit stations installed, entire operation based on this

once you leave TV stations though, Avid is getting smacked by FCP and PPon the low to middle end, and by smoke on the high end. They are very arrogant and have delivered very little innovation in their products for years. combine that with high cost of ownership, yearly service contract, proprietary media, ect and they have been getting kicked for the last couple of years.

Steve Oakley

[Antony Michael Wilson]

I agree with you, Steve. I'd switch from Avid in a second if I could. We're stuck on Avid here for a variety of reasons, some of which are:

1. 8 years + experience using it (better the devil you know). That has a lot of weight for us.

2. 8 years + use - again, lots of media and projects hanging around

3. Avid dominance in the facility and rental market. It's easy to move our project if we need to go up a notch to a big facility. It's extremely fast and easy to rent a replacement when the gear goes down. AND the Avid resellers are a LOT more clued up when it comes to professional broadcast technology support. I still haven't found a FCP system reseller in the UK that actually knows what they're talking about at the mid-high end.

4. Talent pool. It's fast and easy to find other experienced Avid editors with impressive CVs here in London. Experienced FCP editors with a solid professional track record are few and far between over here.

5. I've tried lots of other NLEs and none of them come close to Avid in terms of actual editing. Yes, the Avid I/O, pricing paradigm, and premium charges really suck - as does the FX architechture - but that cutting interface is just superb compared to FCP, PP, Edius, Liquid.

6. It's cross-platform.

I'd be very interested to know which NLEs you think are better, Steve. I'd take Smoke over DS or Symph Nitris for high-end finishing any day but for pure editing for sensible money? So far, I'd say FCP is the only viable alternative for us but it's a very distant second as far as our needs are concerned.

Any experienced Avid editors out there who have made a switch and are happy with their new kit? I'd love to hear from you.

[Steve Oakley]

Originally Posted by Antony Michael Wilson

I agree with you, Steve. I'd switch from Avid in a second if I could. We're stuck on Avid here for a variety of reasons, some of which are:

1. 8 years + experience using it (better the devil you know). That has a lot of weight for us.

2. 8 years + use - again, lots of media and projects hanging around

I thought that way too... once ! now I might be dating myself but - back in the early days of NLE's there were only two choices, Avid and Media100. For me I went M100 because it had better image quality and lower price. Eventually, I got fustrated with M100 after having used it for many years and looked at other solutions. Oddly enough, its was Premiere5 on mac that did this. I had a 3 cam shoot to edit and knew it would be misery to do this in M100, so I had a copy of P and tried it. I laid out each cam in a V track and just cut. I won't say P was a great editor back then, but it got the job done. Having only worked with M100 I had some of the same fears you had, including feeling that other NLE's wouldn't give me the same precision in editing, image quality, ect. but the lack of real layers was killing me in M100 so I switched to FCP. let me tell you it was hard giving up M100 after having used it for years, but I got out in time, and was able to sell off both of my cards ( I had two seats ) and get a little cash for it which I rolled into FCP.

that said, there are lots of ways of dealing with the legacy material because I went through it. you can use automatic duck to move your Avid projects over to FCP easily enough. you can export critical bits of programs to QT, or to HD/digibeta and just reload them into FCP. You could even just play out of Avid in SDI or component into FCP and capture in FCP, all in RT. certainly using SDI this is a great way to move things over. With the change from M100 to FCP which I did, and which I've done for several other shops, it was mainly a matter of exporting EDL's of working programs and reloading in FCP, and the QT conversions of rendered graphic bits. yes this takes time end effort, but its certainly doable. you just have to plan it out. since there is a M100 QT codec, you can even take M100 clips and use them directly in FCP.

as for the 8 years using avid, that really doesn't mean much because its the past. you can just as easily move to FCP with a transition period. the only thing to fear here is fear itself.

Originally Posted by Antony Michael Wilson

3. Avid dominance in the facility and rental market. It's easy to move our project if we need to go up a notch to a big facility. It's extremely fast and easy to rent a replacement when the gear goes down. AND the Avid resellers are a LOT more clued up when it comes to professional broadcast technology support. I still haven't found a FCP system reseller in the UK that actually knows what they're talking about at the mid-high end.

FCP projects move just as easily so thats not a big deal. as for dealer support I'd somewhat agree, there are a lot of bozo dealers out there that are just box movers. However, you can usually find at least one dealer in your area who does know what they are doing... or you wind up hiring some one like me to provide support when needed. thats something I've done for a few dealers in the NY area in supporting broadcast clients.

Originally Posted by Antony Michael Wilson

4. Talent pool. It's fast and easy to find other experienced Avid editors with impressive CVs here in London. Experienced FCP editors with a solid professional track record are few and far between over here.

well thats a bit different. here in the US there are plenty of qualified FCP editors... and even more unqualfied ones, but you can always find some one thats good. I guess it depends - I mean how many editors do you need to hire, even for freelance ? usually most places have a pool of a couple of people that are their A list and can usually get one of them.

Originally Posted by Antony Michael Wilson

5. I've tried lots of other NLEs and none of them come close to Avid in terms of actual editing. Yes, the Avid I/O, pricing paradigm, and premium charges really suck - as does the FX architechture - but that cutting interface is just superb compared to FCP, PP, Edius, Liquid.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Avid gets me bonkers. I've used it and I find it so incredibly limiting and flawed its amazing, this is what I mean:
1. extremely linear editing. I'd liken editing in avid as a computer simulation of editing on tape. all you do is mark I and O all day long and that gets to wearing thin. its a slow and wasteful way to work when there are better ways of doings.

2. you just can't grab and move clips around in the TL... at least not without changing tools, and living in fear of knocking stuff out of sync. this is never an issue in FCP. I find it simply unspeakable that audio and video of a single clip don't have explicit sync. they instead are not locked together. even iMovie has sync lock between A and V of a clip. You can turn this off in FCP if you want BTW, which I do use when mixing sometimes.

3. much more tool switching in avid than FCP for basic editing

Originally Posted by Antony Michael Wilson

I'd be very interested to know which NLEs you think are better, Steve. I'd take Smoke over DS or Symph Nitris for high-end finishing any day but for pure editing for sensible money? So far, I'd say FCP is the only viable alternative for us but it's a very distant second as far as our needs are concerned.
Any experienced Avid editors out there who have made a switch and are happy with their new kit? I'd love to hear from you.

yes smoke for for finishing, but I've seen it used for basic editing tool, although I think it suffers from the most stupid set of keystrokes of any editing app out there. After that, FCP. if you're will to add some third party stuff to it like RED, silhoette roto, bcc its a very powerful system. So may I ask, where do you think FCP falls short in relation to Avid, specifically ?

I've spent a good deal of time teaching avid editors in real network TV how to use FCP, and *every* single one of them has said somewhere in the process "this is so much easier than Avid" so maybe we should talk. I think that maybe the issue is you don't have any good dealers who really know the product ( as You've said ) beyond the basics. send me your phone # off line and I'll give you a call - I've got vonage and the UK is included in my "local" calling area.


Steve Oakley
steveo@praciticali.com

[Jiri Bakala]

Hi Steve,

I am in the same boat as Antony, perhaps a little less involved because I am not running a facility, just my own edit suite. And yes, I am biased and know about it. I learned Avid years ago by working with Avid editors (being either the director or producer of a project) and later, when I moved to a small market and had to get into editing myself, my natural choice was therefore Avid again. Now I am very comfortable with its interface and I have invested into software and hardware (Mojo). Thankfully, I am running it on a Mac so at least a switch to FCP wouldn’t constitute a system change. I just can’t get myself to change my way of thinking and re-learn the whole system from scratch. You seem to have done a fair amount of training, do you have any suggestions or materials that would be helpful to a transitioning editor? None of us really has the luxury of lots of time to re-learn everything from ground up. If I do this I would pretty much need to get going fairly fast because it will likely be a paying client that I will be cutting for.

Thanks,
Jiri