Avid Liquid + V1U 30p = confusion at DVinfo.net

Chris Medico · February 1st, 2007, 02:39 PM

Ok. I've been doing some experiments with progressive video.

Most of what I do is documentary/news style work and the delivery method is the internet.

I purchased a Sony V1U because it shoots true progressive video. I figured that shooting true progressive would be much better than taking footage from my HC3 and converting it to progressive as part of the final encoding to flash or wmv.

I've tried 2 methods in liquid to use the video as progressive. I've used the 100% timewarp with combining fields AND I've also tried to just set the video to progressive by right clicking it and setting the video from interlaced to progressive.

The problem is that both methods reduce the sharpness of the video by an obvious amount (easily seen in the small preview window). I expected this with the interlaced output of the HC3 but not with the true progressive output of the V1U. My best results has been to let the final encoder deinterlace the video.

The question is.. If the video from the V1U is progressive (and it is) why does its quality drop when the fields are combined in liquid? I've done this with both top and bottom field first, one is clearly worse than the other but both are much less sharp than leaving it interlaced.

Ideas?

Per Johan Naesje · February 1st, 2007, 04:07 PM

Chris, when you logging your footage from the V1U shoot in progressive mode, it should be progressive after logging.
You should not have to do any compression on the timeline?

Can you rightclick in the timeline - go to timeline properties and tell what the value in the preset field is? If it says HDV 720/30p or 24p your timeline is already in progressive mode.

Jack Walker · February 2nd, 2007, 03:40 PM

Have you asked this on the Avid Liquid forum?

Have they answered whether Avid Liquid officially supports the Sony V1U/V1E?

Or is this an issue that they don't respond to (suggesting that Liquid does not support the V1, but it's better no one knows that)?

Chris Medico · February 2nd, 2007, 05:09 PM

Its currently not supported. I'm a member over there too.

Jack Walker · February 2nd, 2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

The question is.. If the video from the V1U is progressive (and it is) why does its quality drop when the fields are combined in liquid? I've done this with both top and bottom field first, one is clearly worse than the other but both are much less sharp than leaving it interlaced.

Ideas?

I would suggest that if Liquid does not support the V1U, Liquid is not properly extracting the progressive video from the stream it is imbedded in.

I looked at this camera at a show and the Sony salesman explained that the camera is true progressive, but the video then is embedded in a standard stream allowing existing Sony VCRs to play the tapes, etc. I as very impressed with this camera, the size and form factor (I used a PD150 for a long time), and the quality of the video they were playing in the display. This camera deserves to be used with an editor that supports it and will give the full glory of the video.

Have you tried the demo of Edius. I believe Edius supports the V1U. Edius also has outstanding codecs and encoding options (including Procoder Express) that may work well if you own the V1U and are delivering to the web.

I have come to the conclusion, after many wasted hours, that trying to employ workarounds with a product that does not officially support what I am doing is not worth the wasted time and effort. Edius 4 has a clean, slick workflow for what it supports (which is a lot) and it may be worth a try.

Chris Medico · February 3rd, 2007, 11:41 AM

Unfortunately Jack I suspect you are correct.

And my budget right now doesn't include much for software. The V1U has sucked up most of my disposable income and a skiing injury last week took what was left.

There is promise that a future version will support the V1U. I guess for now I'll let the WMV encoder convert it to progressive. That has given the best results so far.

Chris

Jack Walker · February 3rd, 2007, 01:02 PM

Perhaps you could use Vegas Movie Studio + DVD. It's the center product on this page:
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/pro...egasfamily.asp

The specs say it supports HDV and I think someone told me Vegas supports the V1U. In any case, there is a trial you can download. If you are doing things for the web, this might work well. Or it would let you capture the video, and then you could export cleanly in a format used by Liquid.

The newest version is $120 at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Vegas-Mov...TF8&s=software

*************************************************
However, I'm not an expert at this, but I think there must be a small free program that would let you capture the video properly and then the same program or a different free program (such as Mpeg Stream Clip) would let you change the video to a format that can be used with Liquid.

I would think the forum for the V1U would have users who could give you some ideas.

Jack Walker · February 3rd, 2007, 01:26 PM

Vegas supports the V1U -- with an update that came out in December -- but it's not clear of Vegas Movie Studio supports it. Here's the comparison chart:
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/pro...=404&PageID=28

I can't find any more info, but someone somewhere should know the capturing and conversion options for the V1U.

In any case, since Liquid still doesn't officially support 24p for the JVC camera and Avid officially will make no statements about the future of Liquid, another update, etc., and there has been no word at all for months, I wouldn't count on Liquid adding support for the V1U.

Still, there has got to be a way to capture and then get a 24p stream that Liquid can handle.

Jack Walker · February 3rd, 2007, 01:48 PM

I think I saw the thread you started on the Avid Liquid forum on this subject.

It appears that no forum moderators or Avid people have contributed to the rather lengthy thread. Since -- looking at other threads -- the moderators seem to usually jump in instantly with answers -- this much be a subject they don't want to deal with -- which would suggest to me that Liquid doesn't support the V1U and that there are no plans that the V1U will be supported in the forseeable future.

If there something in the works, I'm sure the moderators and/or an Avid spokesperson would be all over it.

February 1st, 2007, 02:39 PM	#1
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Avid Liquid + V1U 30p = confusion Ok. I've been doing some experiments with progressive video. Most of what I do is documentary/news style work and the delivery method is the internet. I purchased a Sony V1U because it shoots true progressive video. I figured that shooting true progressive would be much better than taking footage from my HC3 and converting it to progressive as part of the final encoding to flash or wmv. I've tried 2 methods in liquid to use the video as progressive. I've used the 100% timewarp with combining fields AND I've also tried to just set the video to progressive by right clicking it and setting the video from interlaced to progressive. The problem is that both methods reduce the sharpness of the video by an obvious amount (easily seen in the small preview window). I expected this with the interlaced output of the HC3 but not with the true progressive output of the V1U. My best results has been to let the final encoder deinterlace the video. The question is.. If the video from the V1U is progressive (and it is) why does its quality drop when the fields are combined in liquid? I've done this with both top and bottom field first, one is clearly worse than the other but both are much less sharp than leaving it interlaced. Ideas? __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

February 1st, 2007, 04:07 PM	#2
Per Johan Naesje Trustee Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Akershus, Norway Posts: 1,413	Chris, when you logging your footage from the V1U shoot in progressive mode, it should be progressive after logging. You should not have to do any compression on the timeline? Can you rightclick in the timeline - go to timeline properties and tell what the value in the preset field is? If it says HDV 720/30p or 24p your timeline is already in progressive mode. __________________ - Per Johan

February 2nd, 2007, 05:09 PM	#4
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Its currently not supported. I'm a member over there too. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

February 3rd, 2007, 11:41 AM	#6
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Unfortunately Jack I suspect you are correct. And my budget right now doesn't include much for software. The V1U has sucked up most of my disposable income and a skiing injury last week took what was left. There is promise that a future version will support the V1U. I guess for now I'll let the WMV encoder convert it to progressive. That has given the best results so far. Chris __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

February 2nd, 2007, 03:40 PM	#3
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Have you asked this on the Avid Liquid forum? Have they answered whether Avid Liquid officially supports the Sony V1U/V1E? Or is this an issue that they don't respond to (suggesting that Liquid does not support the V1, but it's better no one knows that)?

February 3rd, 2007, 01:02 PM	#7
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Perhaps you could use Vegas Movie Studio + DVD. It's the center product on this page: http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/pro...egasfamily.asp The specs say it supports HDV and I think someone told me Vegas supports the V1U. In any case, there is a trial you can download. If you are doing things for the web, this might work well. Or it would let you capture the video, and then you could export cleanly in a format used by Liquid. The newest version is $120 at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Vegas-Mov...TF8&s=software ************************************************* However, I'm not an expert at this, but I think there must be a small free program that would let you capture the video properly and then the same program or a different free program (such as Mpeg Stream Clip) would let you change the video to a format that can be used with Liquid. I would think the forum for the V1U would have users who could give you some ideas.

February 3rd, 2007, 01:26 PM	#8
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	Vegas supports the V1U -- with an update that came out in December -- but it's not clear of Vegas Movie Studio supports it. Here's the comparison chart: http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/pro...=404&PageID=28 I can't find any more info, but someone somewhere should know the capturing and conversion options for the V1U. In any case, since Liquid still doesn't officially support 24p for the JVC camera and Avid officially will make no statements about the future of Liquid, another update, etc., and there has been no word at all for months, I wouldn't count on Liquid adding support for the V1U. Still, there has got to be a way to capture and then get a 24p stream that Liquid can handle.

February 3rd, 2007, 01:48 PM	#9
Jack Walker Trustee Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Burbank Posts: 1,811	I think I saw the thread you started on the Avid Liquid forum on this subject. It appears that no forum moderators or Avid people have contributed to the rather lengthy thread. Since -- looking at other threads -- the moderators seem to usually jump in instantly with answers -- this much be a subject they don't want to deal with -- which would suggest to me that Liquid doesn't support the V1U and that there are no plans that the V1U will be supported in the forseeable future. If there something in the works, I'm sure the moderators and/or an Avid spokesperson would be all over it.