JVC HD vs Avid Xpress pro at DVinfo.net

Paul Jefferies · October 19th, 2006, 06:24 AM

Hi,
I don't know if this is news or not but... I spoke to an Avid rep at a trade show yesterday and asked my favourite question "when's the upgrade for 720p/24 + 25 coming out". He told me that they had planned to have it by December but "have had some problems" so now its going to be next year... he did assure me they are working on it. Please feel free to tell me I should have bought a different editing system...

Stephen L. Noe · October 19th, 2006, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Jefferies

Hi,
I don't know if this is news or not but... I spoke to an Avid rep at a trade show yesterday and asked my favourite question "when's the upgrade for 720p/24 + 25 coming out". He told me that they had planned to have it by December but "have had some problems" so now its going to be next year... he did assure me they are working on it. Please feel free to tell me I should have bought a different editing system...

Hi Paul,

When you bought your camera, were they bundling Liquid with it? You could get Liquid and get cutting today.....

Stephen L. Noe · October 19th, 2006, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Jefferies

Hi,
I don't know if this is news or not but... I spoke to an Avid rep at a trade show yesterday and asked my favourite question "when's the upgrade for 720p/24 + 25 coming out". He told me that they had planned to have it by December but "have had some problems" so now its going to be next year... he did assure me they are working on it. Please feel free to tell me I should have bought a different editing system...

.... in 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60fps.

Steve Benner · October 19th, 2006, 08:15 AM

I have been very made at Avid because of lack of 720/24P support. For now I have been converting to DNxHD. My real concern is that Xpress Pro 5.5 runs on my Powerbook G4, but when this gets released, I have a feeling it wil come with Xpress 6 which will only be tailored to the new Intel macs.

Antony Michael Wilson · October 19th, 2006, 11:29 AM

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

This is what I feared. It was the same story this time last year. Honestly, it's not rocket science. It's particularly ridiculous that they have a cheaper product (Liquid) that already works perfectly with 720p/25 (HDV1). The only reasonable explanation is that originally they down-graded priority over bigger projects like Interplay and that they intend to release this feature as part of a general upgrade to v.6xx (MC v.3xx; SN v.2xx) which means that all the other new features and companion applications must work together for a release throughout the product range. If this is true then - according to past form - the wait could go on for a long while. The other important question is will full HDV1 implementation bring with it the ability to toggle SD/HD project resolution? This capability is there for HDV2 but not in the existing HDV1 support, which means no SD preview to client monitors, which is already there in Liquid as well. To all fellow HD100 owners who use the traditional Avid apps on the PC, take Stephen's advice and get yourself a copy of Liquid. As I've said before, it's worth the money even if you only use it to ingest and transcode. Liquid is already a key part of our workflow for HD100 material, even if we don't use it for cutting. IMHO it's seriously under-rated. It's just a shame it's owned by Avid now! [sort of kidding]. If you're using a Mac then FCP has to be the answer.

Speculation aside, I also happen to know for sure that many people at Avid are mystified as to why anyone would want to work at 720p/25 - particularly for broadcast work. And they do have a point...

Jiri Bakala · October 19th, 2006, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Jefferies

... they had planned to have it by December but "have had some problems" so now its going to be next year...

Oh, you just gotta LOVE Avid... Remember how long we waited for HD support in the first place - that is AFTER Avid already had it running on the PC platform? Dig some trenches, it's going to be a long war. Or, as Tony said, consider FCP :-(

Shaun Wilson · October 19th, 2006, 05:41 PM

Blergh. Everyone else who's getting narked at Avid - feel free to join in making noise over here.

Paul Jefferies · October 19th, 2006, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe

When you bought your camera, were they bundling Liquid with it? You could get Liquid and get cutting today.....

Hi Stephen,
They were bundling Edius with the cam when I bought it, and we can use that when necessary, but we'd already spent £1200 on the Avid software that we used in the SD world, and now when we want it to do HDV its just sitting there, looking sorry for itself... It just makes me annoyed on principal that Avid don't seem particularly bothered to keep up with the competition

Stephen L. Noe · October 19th, 2006, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Jefferies

Hi Stephen,
They were bundling Edius with the cam when I bought it, and we can use that when necessary, but we'd already spent £1200 on the Avid software that we used in the SD world, and now when we want it to do HDV its just sitting there, looking sorry for itself... It just makes me annoyed on principal that Avid don't seem particularly bothered to keep up with the competition

Do you still use BetaSP or DVCam for your Xpress system or have you completely switched over to HD using ProHD?

Antony Michael Wilson · October 20th, 2006, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun Wilson

Blergh. Everyone else who's getting narked at Avid - feel free to join in making noise over here.

Absolutely. I've been making a lot of noises over there for more than a year. Every now and then the Moderators tell us to shut up, with varying degrees of sensitivity. The most amusing recent one was when someone suggested that the delay was because Avid didn't want to do a 'rush job'. Well, there's no danger of that!!!!

I say we keep stirring it up over there until they sort it out.

John Mitchell · October 22nd, 2006, 05:35 AM

Avid do indeed need a kick up the backside on this one.

Stephen - Liquid seems to be a reasonable editor and supports everything you say, but unfortunately my facility is tied to a MCA, Xpress Elite and Xpress Pro, so the lack of integration with the rest of the Avid lineup is a major stumbling block. To me Liquid is about as much of a solution as Edius, Vegas, PP2 etc.

It is really unacceptable to support all the Sony HDV and HD formats and 720P30 HDV and ignore the rest of the 720P world. It almost seems like Avid would like to sell you Liquid as well as Xpress Pro ... hmmm.

Arrogant has always been a word that sits quite close to Avid (in the dictionary).

Antony Michael Wilson · October 22nd, 2006, 07:26 AM

Agreed.

But there's been some movement over there on the Avid forums. It looks like we've had a response from the constant complaining. It seems we might have some news on Monday.

It really is driving me nuts now.

Simon Duncan · October 22nd, 2006, 08:56 AM

I am about to buy the HD111e and am running Xpress Pro HD 5.2.1 and really want to be able to shoot in 720p 24fps.

But I do have a question.

In my current version of Xpress Pro I am able to create a project in 720p/23.976 (I am in PAL world) so shouldn't I be able to shoot with the HD111e in 720p 24fps and be AVID to bring it into my current version of Xpress Pro?

I use a JVC SR-VS30E mini-DV/SVHS Dual VTR PAL for all my digitizing.

http://www.globalmediapro.com/video/..._PAL--569.html

Antony Michael Wilson · October 22nd, 2006, 09:57 AM

No, you can't bring in HDV1 at 24fps as a native stream into a 24p project. It doesn't matter which version of AXPro you are running because it cannot be done even with the latest version. That's what all the fuss is about. Of course, you can down-convert to SD and capture via SD YUV; unbalanced analogue audio; RS422 control/TC using the BRHD50 but then you're firmly in SD. You can also use the native HDV stream with the Convergent HD_Connect LE (or similar) to do the same or capture a baseband SDI signal as uncompressed 16:9 FHA SD into AXPro/MC using the Mojo SDI or baseband HD-SDI 1080i (PsF, of course, via cross-conversion) as DNx into MCA or even 10-bit uncompressed HD into Symphony Nitris. The cheap alternative is to use a third party capture utility and batch convert your files to DNx but you lose TC if you do this unless you really are prepared for a painful work-around.

Bottom line: no 720p/24 or 25 or 50 native support in any Avid system except DS Nitris, which does support 720p/50. You can only work with HDV1 at 30fps in Avid systems below DS.

If you're in a hurry, I'd pick another camera or switch editing system if I were you. Or you could just sit and wait for Avid to get their act together...

Antony Michael Wilson · October 22nd, 2006, 10:32 AM

Simon, you live in Angers? That's just not fair.

October 19th, 2006, 06:24 AM	#1
Paul Jefferies Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Croydon, England Posts: 277	JVC HD vs Avid Xpress pro Hi, I don't know if this is news or not but... I spoke to an Avid rep at a trade show yesterday and asked my favourite question "when's the upgrade for 720p/24 + 25 coming out". He told me that they had planned to have it by December but "have had some problems" so now its going to be next year... he did assure me they are working on it. Please feel free to tell me I should have bought a different editing system...

October 19th, 2006, 08:15 AM	#4
Steve Benner Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 590	I have been very made at Avid because of lack of 720/24P support. For now I have been converting to DNxHD. My real concern is that Xpress Pro 5.5 runs on my Powerbook G4, but when this gets released, I have a feeling it wil come with Xpress 6 which will only be tailored to the new Intel macs.

October 19th, 2006, 11:29 AM	#5
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! This is what I feared. It was the same story this time last year. Honestly, it's not rocket science. It's particularly ridiculous that they have a cheaper product (Liquid) that already works perfectly with 720p/25 (HDV1). The only reasonable explanation is that originally they down-graded priority over bigger projects like Interplay and that they intend to release this feature as part of a general upgrade to v.6xx (MC v.3xx; SN v.2xx) which means that all the other new features and companion applications must work together for a release throughout the product range. If this is true then - according to past form - the wait could go on for a long while. The other important question is will full HDV1 implementation bring with it the ability to toggle SD/HD project resolution? This capability is there for HDV2 but not in the existing HDV1 support, which means no SD preview to client monitors, which is already there in Liquid as well. To all fellow HD100 owners who use the traditional Avid apps on the PC, take Stephen's advice and get yourself a copy of Liquid. As I've said before, it's worth the money even if you only use it to ingest and transcode. Liquid is already a key part of our workflow for HD100 material, even if we don't use it for cutting. IMHO it's seriously under-rated. It's just a shame it's owned by Avid now! [sort of kidding]. If you're using a Mac then FCP has to be the answer. Speculation aside, I also happen to know for sure that many people at Avid are mystified as to why anyone would want to work at 720p/25 - particularly for broadcast work. And they do have a point...

October 19th, 2006, 05:41 PM	#7
Shaun Wilson Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hobart, Australia Posts: 41	Blergh. Everyone else who's getting narked at Avid - feel free to join in making noise over here.

October 22nd, 2006, 05:35 AM	#11
John Mitchell Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 873	Avid do indeed need a kick up the backside on this one. Stephen - Liquid seems to be a reasonable editor and supports everything you say, but unfortunately my facility is tied to a MCA, Xpress Elite and Xpress Pro, so the lack of integration with the rest of the Avid lineup is a major stumbling block. To me Liquid is about as much of a solution as Edius, Vegas, PP2 etc. It is really unacceptable to support all the Sony HDV and HD formats and 720P30 HDV and ignore the rest of the 720P world. It almost seems like Avid would like to sell you Liquid as well as Xpress Pro ... hmmm. Arrogant has always been a word that sits quite close to Avid (in the dictionary).

October 22nd, 2006, 07:26 AM	#12
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Agreed. But there's been some movement over there on the Avid forums. It looks like we've had a response from the constant complaining. It seems we might have some news on Monday. It really is driving me nuts now.

October 22nd, 2006, 08:56 AM	#13
Simon Duncan Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Angers, France Posts: 181	I am about to buy the HD111e and am running Xpress Pro HD 5.2.1 and really want to be able to shoot in 720p 24fps. But I do have a question. In my current version of Xpress Pro I am able to create a project in 720p/23.976 (I am in PAL world) so shouldn't I be able to shoot with the HD111e in 720p 24fps and be AVID to bring it into my current version of Xpress Pro? I use a JVC SR-VS30E mini-DV/SVHS Dual VTR PAL for all my digitizing. http://www.globalmediapro.com/video/..._PAL--569.html

October 22nd, 2006, 09:57 AM	#14
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	No, you can't bring in HDV1 at 24fps as a native stream into a 24p project. It doesn't matter which version of AXPro you are running because it cannot be done even with the latest version. That's what all the fuss is about. Of course, you can down-convert to SD and capture via SD YUV; unbalanced analogue audio; RS422 control/TC using the BRHD50 but then you're firmly in SD. You can also use the native HDV stream with the Convergent HD_Connect LE (or similar) to do the same or capture a baseband SDI signal as uncompressed 16:9 FHA SD into AXPro/MC using the Mojo SDI or baseband HD-SDI 1080i (PsF, of course, via cross-conversion) as DNx into MCA or even 10-bit uncompressed HD into Symphony Nitris. The cheap alternative is to use a third party capture utility and batch convert your files to DNx but you lose TC if you do this unless you really are prepared for a painful work-around. Bottom line: no 720p/24 or 25 or 50 native support in any Avid system except DS Nitris, which does support 720p/50. You can only work with HDV1 at 30fps in Avid systems below DS. If you're in a hurry, I'd pick another camera or switch editing system if I were you. Or you could just sit and wait for Avid to get their act together...

October 22nd, 2006, 10:32 AM	#15
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Simon, you live in Angers? That's just not fair.