JVC HD vs Avid Xpress pro

Simon Duncan · October 22nd, 2006, 10:49 AM

Antony,

Why might that be?

Do you know Angers?

Antony Michael Wilson · October 23rd, 2006, 03:48 AM

A little bit - enough to be jealous!

Simon Duncan · October 23rd, 2006, 04:04 AM

What kind of work do you shoot in London?

Do you have a website for your company or work you have done.

Every now and then I'm over in London and would be good to have another contact in that neck of the woods.

Simon

Antony Michael Wilson · October 23rd, 2006, 08:23 AM

Mostly broadcast work and mostly editing. I've sent you a PM with more information.

Simon Antoniou · October 23rd, 2006, 09:28 AM

My university just got the HD100s in, but my tutor said we can’t shoot in HDV yet because Avid systems don’t support it yet. We currently use Avid Pro HD 5.1.

I thought they it did support it, just not 24p?

Also, I mentioned that we could shoot in HDV and down convert to SD which would produce better picture quality that shooting in DV (what I have researched)

He disagreed with this. What’s true?

Gary Williams · October 23rd, 2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Antoniou

My university just got the HD100s in, but my tutor said we can’t shoot in HDV yet because Avid systems don’t support it yet. We currently use Avid Pro HD 5.1.

I thought they it did support it, just not 24p?

Also, I mentioned that we could shoot in HDV and down convert to SD which would produce better picture quality that shooting in DV (what I have researched)

He disagreed with this. What’s true?

Your right the down convert would be better and yes avid dose support HDV now the 24p issue is still in the works, unless you use liquid.

Jiri Bakala · October 23rd, 2006, 10:34 AM

Does Avid support HDV in PAL countries? I was under the impression that 25 fps is not supported, only 30 fps. What part of the world are you in, Simon?

Antony Michael Wilson · October 23rd, 2006, 10:44 AM

Hi Jiri

Don't get excited! No 24 OR 25fps support yet. Last I heard (from a decent source) is January. As we know, Avid does support 30fps but not very well!

At Simon Antoniou - I also agree with you and not your tutor. If you shoot well in HDV then you can end up with better SD pictures than if you shot in DV but that only applies if the post method is right. That post method isn't really accessible to you via Avid unless you use Liquid (or a lot of fiddling about in 1080p). If you cannot edit HD then you can't down-convert at the end for best results so that means totally SD post. Remember that you cannot downconvert for ingest via firewire using the camera or the deck as you can with Sony HDV2 gear. The only easy method of down-converting is via analogue (YUV) and you can only maintain TC with the deck (RS422) not the camera. For this you will need Mojo analogue or the Adrenaline box with MC. The D to A conversion is not so great on the deck (neither is frame accuracy on capture) and back in again on the Mojo so you'll end up with worse SD than if you shot DV in the first place. Better down-conversion is available via SDI using an HDV to HD/SD SDI interface (such as the Convergent box) for which you will also need Mojo SDI or MC Adrenaline.

Bottom line, if you need to edit soon and you don't have alternative NLE systems available to you, I'd take your tutor's advice and shoot DV if you want 24p or 25p unless you have access to an HDV-HD/SD SDI converter and an Avid workstation that can capture SD SDI.

Simon Antoniou · October 23rd, 2006, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala

Does Avid support HDV in PAL countries? I was under the impression that 25 fps is not supported, only 30 fps. What part of the world are you in, Simon?

Im from PAL land in the UK. Maybe the student package does not support it?
I would prefer to shoot in HDV at 30 fps. Rather than DV at 24p.

The latest version of FCP support HDV 24fps right? I might just edit on my friends mac if I can.

Antony Michael Wilson · October 23rd, 2006, 11:01 AM

Sorry Simon, we were posting at the same time. Yes, definitely use the Mac and FCP and shoot HDV1 if that's a viable option. Oh, and if you are in the UK and you shoot HDV1 30fps you WILL be sorry!!!

Simon Antoniou · October 23rd, 2006, 11:06 AM

I thought it was just a case of shooting HDV, edit, then just put on a DVD. Which is the downconverting. Not as messy as that.

Thankyou very much for the info.

Antony Michael Wilson · October 23rd, 2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Antoniou

I thought it was just a case of shooting HDV, edit, then just put on a DVD. Which is the downconverting. Not as messy as that.

Thankyou very much for the info.

Well, it should be that simple! The issue with Avid as it stands is that you'd have to down-convert BEFORE ingest, which is a pain in itself with the existing JVC gear.

If you go with FCP, then you can do just what you say - ingest and edit in HDV/HD and then encode an SD MPEG2 file for DVD. Much simpler.

Jiri Bakala · October 23rd, 2006, 05:31 PM

Just to add a Mac NTSC experience (nightmare, hassle, whatever you want to call it...);

I ingested and edited in HDV and really wanted to go from there to DVD but in the end and after trying all source of transcodes to DNxHD codecs I had to "Export to HDV Device" and re-capture the project from tape downconverted by the deck to SD. After that, it was a simple QT reference and DVD encode.

I sure hope that Avid will wake up and do something real soon!

Antony Michael Wilson · October 24th, 2006, 03:01 AM

My guess is that one of the reasons it's taking Avid so long to implement 24 and 25fps HDV1 is because the existing 30fps support is so weak, they know they have to re-think. Jiri's experiences confirm this suspicion for me. Also, Jiri - I believe that the best DNx codec you have in 720p/30 HDV projects is 110?

Jiri Bakala · October 24th, 2006, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antony Michael Wilson

Also, Jiri - I believe that the best DNx codec you have in 720p/30 HDV projects is 110?

Yes, that's correct.

October 23rd, 2006, 10:34 AM	#22
Jiri Bakala Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kelowna BC Canada Posts: 706	Does Avid support HDV in PAL countries? I was under the impression that 25 fps is not supported, only 30 fps. What part of the world are you in, Simon? __________________ www.ascentfilms.com

October 23rd, 2006, 11:06 AM	#26
Simon Antoniou Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 73	I thought it was just a case of shooting HDV, edit, then just put on a DVD. Which is the downconverting. Not as messy as that. Thankyou very much for the info. Last edited by Simon Antoniou; October 23rd, 2006 at 12:18 PM.

October 23rd, 2006, 05:31 PM	#28
Jiri Bakala Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Kelowna BC Canada Posts: 706	Just to add a Mac NTSC experience (nightmare, hassle, whatever you want to call it...); I ingested and edited in HDV and really wanted to go from there to DVD but in the end and after trying all source of transcodes to DNxHD codecs I had to "Export to HDV Device" and re-capture the project from tape downconverted by the deck to SD. After that, it was a simple QT reference and DVD encode. I sure hope that Avid will wake up and do something real soon! __________________ www.ascentfilms.com

October 22nd, 2006, 10:49 AM	#16
Simon Duncan Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Angers, France Posts: 181	Antony, Why might that be? Do you know Angers?

October 23rd, 2006, 03:48 AM	#17
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	A little bit - enough to be jealous!

October 23rd, 2006, 04:04 AM	#18
Simon Duncan Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Angers, France Posts: 181	What kind of work do you shoot in London? Do you have a website for your company or work you have done. Every now and then I'm over in London and would be good to have another contact in that neck of the woods. Simon

October 23rd, 2006, 08:23 AM	#19
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Mostly broadcast work and mostly editing. I've sent you a PM with more information.

October 23rd, 2006, 09:28 AM	#20
Simon Antoniou Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 73	My university just got the HD100s in, but my tutor said we can’t shoot in HDV yet because Avid systems don’t support it yet. We currently use Avid Pro HD 5.1. I thought they it did support it, just not 24p? Also, I mentioned that we could shoot in HDV and down convert to SD which would produce better picture quality that shooting in DV (what I have researched) He disagreed with this. What’s true?

October 23rd, 2006, 10:44 AM	#23
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Hi Jiri Don't get excited! No 24 OR 25fps support yet. Last I heard (from a decent source) is January. As we know, Avid does support 30fps but not very well! At Simon Antoniou - I also agree with you and not your tutor. If you shoot well in HDV then you can end up with better SD pictures than if you shot in DV but that only applies if the post method is right. That post method isn't really accessible to you via Avid unless you use Liquid (or a lot of fiddling about in 1080p). If you cannot edit HD then you can't down-convert at the end for best results so that means totally SD post. Remember that you cannot downconvert for ingest via firewire using the camera or the deck as you can with Sony HDV2 gear. The only easy method of down-converting is via analogue (YUV) and you can only maintain TC with the deck (RS422) not the camera. For this you will need Mojo analogue or the Adrenaline box with MC. The D to A conversion is not so great on the deck (neither is frame accuracy on capture) and back in again on the Mojo so you'll end up with worse SD than if you shot DV in the first place. Better down-conversion is available via SDI using an HDV to HD/SD SDI interface (such as the Convergent box) for which you will also need Mojo SDI or MC Adrenaline. Bottom line, if you need to edit soon and you don't have alternative NLE systems available to you, I'd take your tutor's advice and shoot DV if you want 24p or 25p unless you have access to an HDV-HD/SD SDI converter and an Avid workstation that can capture SD SDI.

October 23rd, 2006, 11:01 AM	#25
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	Sorry Simon, we were posting at the same time. Yes, definitely use the Mac and FCP and shoot HDV1 if that's a viable option. Oh, and if you are in the UK and you shoot HDV1 30fps you WILL be sorry!!!

October 24th, 2006, 03:01 AM	#29
Antony Michael Wilson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 343	My guess is that one of the reasons it's taking Avid so long to implement 24 and 25fps HDV1 is because the existing 30fps support is so weak, they know they have to re-think. Jiri's experiences confirm this suspicion for me. Also, Jiri - I believe that the best DNx codec you have in 720p/30 HDV projects is 110?