24F worries in Avid Xpress Pro workflow

[Simon Duncan]

I am just on the verge of buying the XLH1 but I have one issue holding things off. I edit on AVID Xpress Pro and currently there appears to be no support for the XLH1's 24F mode. Which as major pain since I have 2 short films I am wanting to shoot over the rest of this year and they're dramas so the 24F mode is a preferred option.

So my question is do people think that Canon will ever go over to true 24P and the XLH1 and if so when? I know the last bit of the question is impossible to answer. But do any of you guys or gays know whether a new version of this camera would carry such a change? Or more to the point what was Canon thinking regarding its 24F flavour?

Interested in peoples thoughts on this one.

[Lee Alford]

Simon, it's not that the H1 isn't "true". It is. It's that the software cannot handle 1080 resolution HDV footage at 24 frames per second. It would not matter if the H1 had progressive scan or interlaced scan. It's the recorded footage that Avid cannot handle.

[Brad Schreiber]

Simon,

This is what I am doing, and I am very happy with the results. Keep in mind this workflow is not for time sensitive material, i.e., it takes awhile. First, you must have a PC. If you do not, I would not attest to the workflow's success. If you can find a Mac solution to Step 1, you are home free. If you find such a solution, please let me know, I need to use one.

Step1 , encode HDV tape, using Canon XLH1 as a deck into an .m2t file using Aspect HD, a software you can get for a free 2-week trial. If you buy it, it's $500. I suggest breaking an hourlong tape into 3 seperate 20 minute chunks. You can get data breaks., and that will corrupt the whole shebang. By the way, one hourlong .m2t file is 11 GB. This also removes the 3:2 pulldown, so you have a 23.98 file to work with, and will no longer concern yourself with that step.

Step 2, download MPEG STreamclip. It's freeware, and is available in Mac or PC. Use MPEG STreamclip to convert the .m2t into a Quicktime file. I converted to 24 Frame DnX 220. An hour fo this is around 75 GB. Also, it takes a LONG time to render an hour of footage. Around 4-6 hours. This is why this workflow is not for the time sensitive.

Step 3, Import the Quicktime into AXP. I am cutting in a 1080p 23.976 project.

Step 4. Edit your project.

Done! As you can tell, this is a storage intensive process. Welcome to High Def.

Hope this helps.

Brad

[Timothy D. Allen]

Brad,

Thanks for the tip! I've seriously been up all night trying to get all this working, and I think I've finally managed to extract some 24f HDV footage off my XL H1. (I'm feeling burned by Canon right now... ) What good is a frame rate that is virtually impossible to use!?! At least Adobe has jumped on the let's-support-a-ridiculously-inferior-format-even-though-only-one-manufacturer-on-the-market-uses-it band wagon!

Sheesh.... But I digress.

It took my a good long while to get the Aspect HD software to recognize the camera as a deck, and then once I finally got it to work neither one of the file formats in produced were usable. The .m2t file can't be edited, and neither can the .avi. At least not by AXP. And I've been an loyal MPEG Streamclip user for a while, but of course when I go to convert a .m2t file it tells me I have to fork over 20 bones to get the plug-in for QuickTime! I did it, whatever.

Anyway it's working!!! (I guess...) I'm not exactly sure how I can tell if this is a 24p or 23.97 video file that I get form the camera... any thoughts?

Thanks again!

[Steve Benner]

Originally Posted by Timothy D. Allen

Brad,
(I'm feeling burned by Canon right now... )

Do not get mad at Canon, get mad at Avid since it is their fault. Avid has had plently of time to impliment 24F but has chose not to since they DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU. They only care about their Hollywood Workflow and their Government Contracts. Face the facts.

I came to realize this after waiting for 2 YEARS now for 24P support in 720P from the JVC HD100. They have been promising support since two NAB's ago. It is pathetic, and it will not be in the new version either. Avid simply has other things to do.

You should take a look at FCP. It supports the Canon 24f.

Out of all the Editing Companies though, Canopus (Edius) has been the ONLY ONE that cares about customers when it comes to implimenting new formats. They are always the first to except new formats. They also support everything natively.

[Geoff Dills]

As I don't want to drop $500 for simply capturing m2t files from tape to disc, I found HDVSplit for free (instead of using AspectHD) which will get the clips to your hard drive which then can be converted by MPEGStream. Seems to have difficulty still with the Canon for scene detection as it wanted to change scenes way too often, but it's a work in progress and I expect they'll figure out that bug. Just turn off scene detection and it worked fine. A bit cumbersome, but one advantage is you will no longer be using HDV in Avid and can export a QT Reference from the timeline without having to transcode.

[Timothy D. Allen]

Originally Posted by Steve Benner

Do not get mad at Canon, get mad at Avid since it is their fault.

I don't know, man. I'm having a hard time buying that. I can't see blaming Avid for not support a frame rate that should have never existed. Canon's 24F is a joke! (I know I'll get flack from a tone of folks for that one) I don't understand why they just didn't come out a make a true progressive frame rate like every other pro-sumer camcorder trying to tap in to the indie market! If they had just done that, then we wouldn't be waiting on - and they wouldn't be forcing - NLEs to make changes to their software just so we can use their proprietary frame blending! It's like me creating an audio format called .tim, and then getting mad at the CD player manufacturers for not supporting it! Am I off here?

As for FCP, I can't deal with all the render-time! Avid is hands down a better, more streamlined, NLE and if I have to spend a little more to make up for Canon's blunder, then whatever. But I know I'm shopping for a new Camera, that's for sure.

I will give that HDVSplit a try! Thanks for the trip Geoff!

[Steve Benner]

Originally Posted by Timothy D. Allen

I don't know, man. I'm having a hard time buying that. I can't see blaming Avid for not support a frame rate that should have never existed. Canon's 24F is a joke!

Let's try this again...AVID CANNOT SUPPORT HDV AT 24FPS AT ALL! The file on the tape is the same as the new Sony (HVR-VIU) cam that records in 24P at 1080i. NEITHER will work in AVID BECAUSE AVID DOES NOT SUPPORT THEM.

Sorry to yell, but trust me on this...it has nothing to do with the "f". The reason Canon used it is because the CHIP on the camera is interlaced, so they cannot call it "Progressive." You still get a 24 Frame file imbedded in a 1080/60i with pulldown.

If you theory was correct, then why hasn't Avid been able to capture 24P from the JVC HD 100 which is a Full Square pixel 1280x720 Progressive camera. I can tell you why, because Avid doesn't care and has been lying for 2 years now because they have better things to do.

Also, why has FCP, Canopus, and Abode all been able to figure out the so called "24f" situation. Why, because they wanted to not ignore part of their customer base. Stop blamming Canon.

For the record, i don't even have one of the new Canon's. I have the JVC HD100 with which the Avid dilema has been lingering much longer.

[Jiri Bakala]

I completely agree. Avid has other priorities and simply dropped the ball on HDV. It's sad and riddiculous but that's the reality of the day with Avid. I, just as many others, still prefer the interface over FCP but may not be able to wait much longer for them to get their act together.

[Geoff Dills]

Originally Posted by Steve Benner

The file on the tape is the same as the new Sony (HVR-VIU) cam that records in 24P at 1080i. NEITHER will work in AVID BECAUSE AVID DOES NOT SUPPORT THEM.

Sorry to yell, but trust me on this...it has nothing to do with the "f". The reason Canon used it is because the CHIP on the camera is interlaced, so they cannot call it "Progressive." You still get a 24 Frame file imbedded in a 1080/60i with pulldown.

Maybe I am misinformed, but it was my understanding that the Canon does NOT use a 60i stream, but is a 24 frame stream recorded without any pulldown and the Sony DOES use a 60i stream with the pulldown. How the image becomes a progressive frame in the Canon from an interlaced sensor is the reason it's "F" and not "P", NOT how it's recorded on tape, from what I understand. Can someone enlighten us?

[Timothy D. Allen]

Perhaps I stand corrected. My apologies to Canon if I wrongly accused them. Regardless, I'm pretty bummed it's so difficult to edit 24p HD footage with Avid as I do feel their interface is far superior to any of the other NLEs out there right now.

In about two weeks I'll have the JVC HD250, and I'm looking forward to seeing how well that works. I know you said Avid didn't support the JVC 100's 24P, but in the presets there is a 720p/23.97 project you can create. In my experience with editing SD with my Canon, I can create either a 24p, or 23.97fps project and I'm able to capture the footage just fine in both.

My guess was a 720p/23.97 project would be able to handle the JVC 24p format. Is this not the case?

[David Parks]

Originally Posted by Timothy D. Allen

Perhaps
In about two weeks I'll have the JVC HD250, and I'm looking forward to seeing how well that works. I know you said Avid didn't support the JVC 100's 24P, but in the presets there is a 720p/23.97 project you can create. In my experience with editing SD with my Canon, I can create either a 24p, or 23.97fps project and I'm able to capture the footage just fine in both.

My guess was a 720p/23.97 project would be able to handle the JVC 24p format. Is this not the case?

Timothy,

720/23.97 is a non HDV preset mainly designed for DVCProHD workflows. However, with a lot of time and pain you can use MPEGStreamclip to convert mt2 (HDV 1) to a DNXHD mastering codec, let's say DNXHD 145. Then you can import those clips into a 720/23.97 project. That is if you're using Xpress or the software version of Media Composer. Note: Only 720/30p is a supported HDV project preset in Avid. It is labeled as 720/30 HDV.

If you're using Media Composer with Adrenaline plus HD card you can come straight out the HD SDI of your JVC 250 into Avid using the 720/23.97 preset because you're no longer in HDV land.

Hope this eases some confusion.

[Jiri Bakala]

Originally Posted by Timothy D. Allen

My guess was a 720p/23.97 project would be able to handle the JVC 24p format. Is this not the case?

I haven't tried this but I highly doubt that this would work. Otherwise we would have already had a workaround using these settings. JVC's 720p in any frame rate is not supported by Avid, as their 30p is very finicky and sound seems to drift and there is no support for 24p at all. You may have to look at FCP if you want to use JVC ProHD, sad to say.

[David Parks]

Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala

JVC's 720p in any frame rate is not supported by Avid, as their 30p is very finicky and sound seems to drift and there is no support for 24p at all. You may have to look at FCP if you want to use JVC ProHD, sad to say.

Not that I'm backing or defending Avid for their lack of HDV 1 support compared to other NLE's, but in my experience I haven't had any problems editing in 720/30p HDV. It has been solid and I haven't experienced any drift. In fact, I've got a marketing DVD that I will start shooting next week. I plan on shooting/editing in 30p via my JVD HD 100.

IMHO, 30p looks great. I shot 30p last year for the same client and they were happy.

[Timothy D. Allen]

Well that give me a lot to think about! I've been thinking about shooting in 60i, de-interlacing into 30p and then using a 3:2 pulldown to fudge the 24p look?

Any thoughts?