Saw a Media Composer demo live tonight

[Vito DeFilippo]

Just came from the Montreal Final Cut Users Group PostNAB 21010 event. One of the events was a quick demo of MC5.

The editor used AMA to mount a folder of native Red files, as well as native quicktimes from a Canon 7D. He put them both on the timeline and they played realtime on the same timeline from an external firewire drive. I couldn't believe it.

Some nice interface improvements, and the ability to use the same audio effects that Protools uses looks awesome.

Can't wait!

[Perrone Ford]

Brother, I am SO there. My MC4 should be arriving tomorrow or Friday, and MC5 later in the month. I've got a short film to cut, and 2 promos to cut. One of them multi-camera. My MXO2 mini is already hooked up and my 2 4GB SATA drives were ordered Wed. morning.

That stuff can't get here fast enough!

[Vito DeFilippo]

Hey Perrone,

You are going to use the MXO2 for monitoring? Here's a quick promo video:

HDMI and Analog I/O - Matrox MXO2 Mini Video

He mentions the calibration ability, which seems to apply to the Avid workfklow. I think the I/O capturing options are not compatible with Media Composer, though I suppose you could capture through the MXO2 Mini with another application, then use AMA to access the files in MC5. That might be a good workaround to the limitations of the MC5 MXO2 Mini combo.

It was interesting at the demo last night. When he opened the files natively and played the timeline, the FCP crowd seemed unimpressed, until he basically told them, "Hey, FCP can't come even close to being able to do this!" And this guy is one of the founders of the FCP group in Montreal, and the post supervisor at a major Post facility here. An ex-Avid editor who said this is the first time in years that he was impressed with an Avid release.

You might be interested in the AvidL2 list. High end professional editors discussing Avid centric issues. I lurk cause the discussion is pretty rarified, but man I've learned a lot:

Avid-L2 : The Avid-L2

Times, they are a changin'.

[Perrone Ford]

I'll check out that list, thanks. And yes, I've already calibrated the MX02. And I've captured several SD and HD streams with it already. I couldn't ask for anything better. I don't need to do any captures for Avid through the box, my work either comes to me on hard drive, or my tapeless camera which is AMA supported. I suspect the capture from the MX02 will be able to be "imported" into MC4/5, just not fast imported or supported via AMA. I'm fine with that.

I'm not surprised the FCP crowd didn't respond. The box doesn't say Apple on it.

Originally Posted by Vito DeFilippo

Hey Perrone,

You are going to use the MXO2 for monitoring? Here's a quick promo video:

HDMI and Analog I/O - Matrox MXO2 Mini Video

He mentions the calibration ability, which seems to apply to the Avid workfklow. I think the I/O capturing options are not compatible with Media Composer, though I suppose you could capture through the MXO2 Mini with another application, then use AMA to access the files in MC5. That might be a good workaround to the limitations of the MC5 MXO2 Mini combo.

It was interesting at the demo last night. When he opened the files natively and played the timeline, the FCP crowd seemed unimpressed, until he basically told them, "Hey, FCP can't come even close to being able to do this!" And this guy is one of the founders of the FCP group in Montreal, and the post supervisor at a major Post facility here. An ex-Avid editor who said this is the first time in years that he was impressed with an Avid release.

You might be interested in the AvidL2 list. High end professional editors discussing Avid centric issues. I lurk cause the discussion is pretty rarified, but man I've learned a lot:

Avid-L2 : The Avid-L2

Times, they are a changin'.

[Vito DeFilippo]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

I suspect the capture from the MX02 will be able to be "imported" into MC4/5, just not fast imported or supported via AMA. I'm fine with that.

I'd have to test, but if there is an application that can use the MXO2 to capture to Quicktime, then you could use AMA to mount the files in Avid. My understanding from the the press release and discussions I've read is that, if Quicktime can play it, Avid can use it natively with AMA. This would bypass the usual Avid import conversion.

I'm not surprised the FCP crowd didn't respond. The box doesn't say Apple on it.

That was my reaction at first, but I really don't think it was that. It seemed more like they didn't understand that this ability was significant. It didn't come across as Apple fanboys dismissing everything else. I think many in the crowd were shooters, or editors that never had to deal with these formats, or mixed timelines.

[David Parks]

We've got FCP and will be getting v.5. Is it possible that you could capture via Matrox to FCP in QT ProRES, move those files out of capture folder to AMA folder?? You would have to have the ProRes decoder for PC. But I think it should work except we don't have the Matrox box. :)

Most of the FCP and Vegas editors I've met haven't edited on any other platform before. So they don't know, what they don't know. If that makes any sense...

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by David Parks

We've got FCP and will be getting v.5. Is it possible that you could capture via Matrox to FCP in QT ProRES, move those files out of capture folder to AMA folder?? You would have to have the ProRes decoder for PC. But I think it should work except we don't have the Matrox box. :)

If I remember correctly, on the Mac, the Matrox box DOES capture into .MOV and I believe that ProRes was an option, but I'll need to verify that.

Originally Posted by David Parks

Most of the FCP and Vegas editors I've met haven't edited on any other platform before. So they don't know, what they don't know. If that makes any sense...

It makes perfect sense. I started on Premiere, moved to Vegas in 2003, and am now moving to Avid. I played a bit with FCP, but I am just not a "Mac" guy and it didn't feel good to me. To be fair, Premiere didn't either all those years ago.

One of the great misnomers of Vegas is that it has an open timeline that can ingest and play "just about anything". Well, in SD that was kinda true. In HD it's totally different. Nothing in an MOV container plays real time. So you knock out nearly half the professional formats right off the bat. It will ingest h.264 but since it cannot be accelerated it won't play real time either. AVCHD works ok in one layer with a quadcore, but add a second layer or effects on the single layer and real time is lost. R3D support was recently added which is good. DPX and EXR support has been added but only via import, not by dropping onto the timeline. DVCProHD is not supported except by third party software, so that knocks out one of the most popular source formats. Avid's MXF filetype is not supported. AVC-Intra is not supported.

With Avid 5, the timeline is much more open and the stuff that is supported is real time. That makes a massive difference.

[Shaun Roemich]

Originally Posted by David Parks

Most of the FCP and Vegas editors I've met haven't edited on any other platform before. So they don't know, what they don't know. If that makes any sense...

Interestingly (or not...) I have. Learned on AVID Media Composer back in 98/99, bought FCP1.0.2 back in '99, edited on client's AVID and Media100 systems alongside my own software only FCP suite for years until most of my clients bought FCP sheerly because of the performance at the price. Again, back then Premiere wasn't what it is today...

I was at a Matrox/Sony roadshow yesterday where the "amazing" adoption of the MXO2 by AVID came up. For those using a file based workflow, this IS a bit of a game changer in that you get to save about $7500 to monitor your video, compared to buying MOJO hardware but in order to get the INPUT as well as the output you can get in FCP with a Matrox MXO2 (the full box, not the mini), you need to spend over $20k with AVID to get Nitris.

Don't get me wrong - I look at full blown AVID suites with envy and I remember just how much I enjoyed cutting in Media Composer - in fact, I'd jump TODAY if I won the lottery or had a 6 figure project come through my door. It's just interesting to me how Apple and Steve Jobs are mocked for not embracing Flash and BluRay but AVID's protection of it's own marketshare in regard to I/O solutions isn't mentioned.

IF AVID allowed full integration of a Matrox solution, I'd buy. No questions asked. I love FCP and what it has allowed me to do for 11 years but the reliability isn't what it was for me 9 years ago and the changes to the interface to appease new editors that couldn't be bothered to learn industry standard practices have befuddled me on numerous occasions. I appreciate that AVID stands firm and provides a solid, stable professional product. I just can't buy into NITRIS at this point.

[Vito DeFilippo]

One of the workflows specifically mentioned in the Avid-L2 list was to capture in Final Cut and edit in Avid through AMA. At first I thought, why bother? But it occurred to me that if you own both Avid and Final Cut (which many do, including myself), you could be editing on one while capturing with the other.

I've run across this a lot. I only have one Avid licence so have to stop working when it's time to capture.

If you had MC5 and a Matrox MXO2 Mini, Shaun, what is missing for you? SDI? I know you work in broadcast, but SDI is something I never use.

[Shaun Roemich]

Originally Posted by Vito DeFilippo

If you had MC5 and a Matrox MXO2 Mini, Shaun, what is missing for you? SDI? I know you work in broadcast, but SDI is something I never use.

Analog or digital INPUT. Component (HD or SD), HMDI, SDI (again, HD or SD) are all disabled for use by AVID software. The next box will be designed to accept anything in (well, not 2, 3 or 4k...) or else I might as well just keep plugging away on an iMac using software only, whether it be FCP or MC5.

Do I use SDI now? No but part of my business model now that I live in The Big City is freelance as an editor with suite and not just edit my own productions (which at least for now I can capture over FW or bring file based media in via cards/readers). Being able to rent HD (or legacy BetaSP) VTRs as needed for ingest isn't a necessity but it does help to differentiate me and my services.

Next box is priced out at over $15k (hardware, I/O and software) but not including monitors or BIG RAID so I'd like to get the most bang for those bucks as possible.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

Analog or digital INPUT. Component (HD or SD), HMDI, SDI (again, HD or SD) are all disabled for use by AVID software. The next box will be designed to accept anything in (well, not 2, 3 or 4k...) or else I might as well just keep plugging away on an iMac using software only, whether it be FCP or MC5.

Do I use SDI now? No but part of my business model now that I live in The Big City is freelance as an editor with suite and not just edit my own productions (which at least for now I can capture over FW or bring file based media in via cards/readers). Being able to rent HD (or legacy BetaSP) VTRs as needed for ingest isn't a necessity but it does help to differentiate me and my services.

Next box is priced out at over $15k (hardware, I/O and software) but not including monitors or BIG RAID so I'd like to get the most bang for those bucks as possible.

Shaun,

Right now, I am using Vegas (until I install Avid MC which just arrived this morning). However, Vegas doesn't support the MXO2 whatsoever. However, I just cut my first project in Vegas with material I ingested in with the MXO2. The AV Tools that ship with the box allow for capture with the VERY nice MXO2 codecs, thats 8bit or 10bit uncompressed, or Mpeg2 I-Frame out to 300Mbps. It is to my eyes, as clean as DNxHD and I am comfortable with capturing that way. I will be testing ingest into Avid this afternoon with that capture solution.

Clearly it's not ideal, but I don't see it as any different than what we've been doing with Avid or FCP for years. Log and Transfer, or import media. Same thing. So buy a full MX02 and not a mini, and you've got your SDI, HDMI, and Component in for under $1k.

I have two setups in my suite. One side is SD where I keep DV/DVCam, DVD, and VHS Cassettes as ingest sources. I can also bring in things over firewire there. The other side of the house is HD, where I have card readers, BluRay (play and record), and the Matrox MXO2 mini. With Vegas and Avid installed on the HD side, and on my laptop, I can ingest and cut anything from DV to RED 4K, to ARRIRAW.

You can get this done inexpensively, if you care to. In fact I may set up a second MXO2 mini on the SD side to just have a capture only solution over there while I am cutting on the HD side. Drives are shared over the network between machines, so I'll have immediate access to that media once it's brought in.

I am also guessing if Matrox and Avid continue this partnership, that Matrox will write an AMA driver and then we'll have AMA access to the files captured with the MXO2 boxes. Of course this is just a guess, but seems logical.

[Vito DeFilippo]

Interesting discussion.

I see where you're coming Shaun. You don't want to turn clients away because you can't capture a tape, that's for sure. I freelance as well, but have just a few clients, and they all work in formats that work with firewire, or I import file based media.

Even with the MXO2 Mini, though, it seems you have component and HDMI input for capture through Final Cut, and can open these files natively through AMA. Perhaps that's a bit clunky, however.

For me, it's a no brainer. I continue to work in the file formats I'm used to anyway, and get cheap monitoring. As a plus, I can use it with Final Cut when I get clients that want it. It's a win win.

Perrone, I'd be interested to know the results of your testing. Will Avid open a Matrox file? Does is capture to Quicktime with the included AV tools?

[David Parks]

We're looking at Aja KiPro as our intermediate HD device. Reocrd SDI/HDMI out from pratically any HD camera. It is camera codec agnostic. KiPro records in ProRes. AMA to Avid and whalla.

Edit ProRes, export ProRes to CFcard or KiPro drive. If we need to go to tape we take the KiPro to a post facility and dump out to whaterver format we need. But going to tape in any format is becoming a rarity more and more.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Vito DeFilippo

Perrone, I'd be interested to know the results of your testing. Will Avid open a Matrox file? Does is capture to Quicktime with the included AV tools?

Avid did NOT convert the file properly. I cannot speak for MC5 of course, but MC4 did not. I suspect this is because I used the Mpeg2 option. I'll fool with this more when I have a chance.

I looked at the Mac instruction booklet (it's different than the PC one) and it appears that there are specific FCP drivers much like the Avid ones. So you can actually do your normal capture from inside FCP using the Matrox box. That should let you choose whatever codec you'd like. I'd get that verified, but this appears to be the case. I am assuming from the material, that it works much like a Aja card would.

[Shaun Roemich]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

So buy a full MX02 and not a mini, and you've got your SDI, HDMI, and Component in for under $1k.

There's the problem - AVID won't capture using the Matrox and Matrox doesn't have access to AVID's codecs, at least according to the Matrox spokesperson I spoke to yesterday. If I was going to edit in MC, I'd like to use AVID's codecs.

PS. Thanks for all the input, Perrone.