Leaving Vegas...

Sherif Choudhry · May 31st, 2008, 04:10 PM

Very interesting thread - because of this unusual low cost of MC educational - in the UK at £200 ($400) - thats way below the educational cost of FCP. The hardware cost cancels out because i'd want to run on 2.6Ghz 4gb ram Macbook pro.

So last "determinator" for me: assuming i use the same esata raid array on the MBPro, which gives me better real-time preview performance on hdv footage (when using 2-3 color correction filters and several video and audio tracks)?

FCP or MC?

Thanks!!

David Parks · May 31st, 2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherif Choudhry

Very interesting thread - because of this unusual low cost of MC educational - in the UK at £200 ($400) - thats way below the educational cost of FCP. The hardware cost cancels out because i'd want to run on 2.6Ghz 4gb ram Macbook pro.

So last "determinator" for me: assuming i use the same esata raid array on the MBPro, which gives me better real-time preview performance on hdv footage (when using 2-3 color correction filters and several video and audio tracks)?

FCP or MC?

Thanks!!

Sherif, In Media Composer Standard 3 way Color Correction plus a master CC isn't a set of plugin filters so I'm not sure you would be making an accuate comparision. Media Composer CC tool launches into it's own interface designed specifically for scene to scene color correction. It is seperate from the other interfaces, In that interface you see everything in real time including the previous and post clips in your timeline. Also, every bit of control you would ever need is in that interface with the exception of secondary cc. So, you don't have to stack filters. In the timeline I'm pretty sure in wuold still be still be realtime HDV without rendering on your MacBook Pro. Slower computers you might have to render the timeline but it renders pretty fast.

Now if your using an AVX plug in like Magic Buller looks, then it wouldn't be realtime.

I hope this helps.

Bill Ravens · May 31st, 2008, 06:18 PM

In my experience, the CC tool in Avid is extremely competent. There is no secondary CC tool, which is a significant drawback, but, it can be had with Colorista plugin. And the intrinsic ability to display real time...a true surprise.

The REAL strength of Avid is in its file management bin tool. This is such an advantage when working with many clips, that I can't describe it unitl you experience it. Add in the variations in the edit tool, slip/slide, replace, 3 point edit, replace edit, etc., etc., never found another NLE that does this so cleanly. Not very user friendly, until you get it, then it is uniquely wonderful.

I look forward to an edit session with Avid, unlike vegas, which I always entered into with some trepidation.

Cliff Etzel · June 2nd, 2008, 08:54 PM

I use to see Bill post all the time over at the Vegas forums, but his recent posts about using Edius and now Avid reflect my frustrations with Vegas as well.

Vegas basically has lost me money on my last project due to its inability to handle a large file from a voice recital I shot. In addition, I couldn't do a batch capture since it acquires footage in native m2t format - I had to install my old copy of Premiere Pro 1.5.1 to reacquire footage - a pain but made my life alot easier since I could work with numerous shorter clips instead of one continuous clip.

I've also become interested in Avid - having tried Edius and not liking it at all so far (maybe my old habits of simple interfaces is getting in the way of learning proper editing technique).

One of my biggest needs is integration with audio editing applications - I have other apps already and am intrigued by Media Composer - how does one take the audio track from a video clip and work with it in something like Adobe Audition? This feature is what I liked about Vegas and Premiere Pro, but as I read more about Avid's recommitment to its core market, I'm looking more at what MC has to offer since I am a one man shop who shoots short form doc type work - I'm tired of the loss of valuable time and money due to inadequacies of software like Vegas.

Richard Alvarez · June 2nd, 2008, 11:38 PM

AVID owns ProTools, so the export to ProTools is typically what you would want to do for advanced audio manipulations.

Roger Shealy · June 3rd, 2008, 05:40 AM

Jeff,

I'd appreciate you giving your feedback (even on the Vegas site?) after a couple of months on real projects using FCP, Avid, or whatever you decide to go to. I'm not as deep into videography as many of you, but I appreciate having a program as good as Vegas for $300. But 2 years ago I felt good about VMSP 8 and then outgrew it when I went to multiple cameras with multiple titles and multiple sound tracks. I've posted in the past asking people who were knowledgeable in Vegas, FCP, and Avid to share their pro's and con's of the 3. Very few who are proficient in FCP and Avid have a good working knowledge of Vegas. Unfortunately such discussions usually degenerate into a PC/Mac discussion.

Perhaps you can give an level-headed evaluation later this year; perhaps even from the viewpoint of at what points a person may benefit from changing platforms.

Bill Ravens · June 3rd, 2008, 06:50 AM

Cliff...

You bring up a good question about audio capabilities in other NLE's, besides Vegas. Vegas handled the audio portion quite well; and it is, in fact something I miss. My current workflow is to render out the wav file and work the audio issues in Soundforge, then import back into Avid. I am resisting ProTools, because, while it is much of a digital music industry standard, it is not user friendly. Avid, while integrated with ProTools, doesn't have the neat way of inserting editted audio as a "take".

But, I also use a number of other third party sound tools, such as HarBal, and Mackie's DAW, Traktion", which never integrated with Vegas anyway, so my workflow hasn't really been affected that much.

I will say that Avid and ProTools are not easily learned. Not so easy as Vegas, anyway. The workflow is counter intuitive; and, the core software is outdated, having been written many years ago. Doing the wrong thing will result in a hard crash. Now that I know it, however, I like its flexibility and adaptability. Avid really shines with its file managment workflow. Try editting 50 clips in Vegas and keep track of everything. Avid handles that with ease. I'm waiting to see what Avid puts on the table for version 3. Best of all, Avid does seem to grasp the concept that they support working editors, not weekend editors. If you're a weekend editor, don't take offense. Just understand that your priorities are not the same as mine.

Roger Shealy · June 3rd, 2008, 07:09 AM

I will wear my weekend-editor/hacker badge with dignity and honor!

It's interesting, for some of us who are doing personal and "industrial type work", say work instructions, project updates.... a clear, fast B+ with 10 hours of work is better business than an A+ with 100 hours.

I would like for the B+ vesus A+ to be a decision and not a limitation, however.

Cliff Etzel · June 3rd, 2008, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

Cliff...

You bring up a good question about audio capabilities in other NLE's, besides Vegas. Vegas handled the audio portion quite well; and it is, in fact something I miss. My current workflow is to render out the wav file and work the audio issues in Soundforge, then import back into Avid. I am resisting ProTools, because, while it is much of a digital music industry standard, it is not user friendly. Avid, while integrated with ProTools, doesn't have the neat way of inserting editted audio as a "take".

But, I also use a number of other third party sound tools, such as HarBal, and Mackie's DAW, Traktion", which never integrated with Vegas anyway, so my workflow hasn't really been affected that much.

I will say that Avid and ProTools are not easily learned. Not so easy as Vegas, anyway. The workflow is counter intuitive; and, the core software is outdated, having been written many years ago. Doing the wrong thing will result in a hard crash. Now that I know it, however, I like its flexibility and adaptability. Avid really shines with its file managment workflow. Try editting 50 clips in Vegas and keep track of everything. Avid handles that with ease. I'm waiting to see what Avid puts on the table for version 3. Best of all, Avid does seem to grasp the concept that they support working editors, not weekend editors. If you're a weekend editor, don't take offense. Just understand that your priorities are not the same as mine.

That is something I am already missing, although with my old copy of PPro 1.5 and Audition, it's not too bad, but there are some projects I'm wanting to begin developing and Vegas just really let me down on a paying project and once bitten, twice shy is how I'm feeling.

I'm not very keen on the reputation of Pro Tools - no matter what other Avid editors say - I've played around with Avid FreeDV a while back and could not wrap my head around its interface - let alone how to render out a WAV file for editing in Sound Forge, Audition, etc. Maybe that was crippled in the free version. Edius was the same thing for me - But then again...

Since I don't have access to anyone in my area using Avid, I don't have the luxury of trying it out on someone else's machine - hence my hesitancy to jump full bore into Avid - I'm leaning more towards trying to find a copy of PPro 2.0, but any advice on Avid will be received with an open mind.

Bill Mecca · June 3rd, 2008, 11:33 AM

I've enjoyed reading Bill's posts on his frustration with Vegas.

I've edited on Avid since 1994, and currently use XDV 3.5 (at work) and Xpress Pro 4.2.(at home) One of the things that sold me on it way back when was how intuitive it was (180 degrees from Bill I guess) We used to cut 16mm film in the basement of the TV station and I picked up on that from the editors (I was a reporter at the time) so Avid's Clips, Bins, Sequences made the most sense to me compared to the other offerings at the time, Media 100 and the Imix Video Cube (remember that one?).

I've messed around with Vegas 6 and there are some things I really like about it, and had considered switching here at work (solo video production office for a state agency) But I am just so atuned with Avid, that is how I work and I realized I was trying to make Vegas be Avid. (ain't gonna happen).

If I could I would put the two into a blender and come up with the nearly perfect NLE... I love the way Vegas handles audio, I exported an audio track, worked on it in Audition, opened Vegas back up and it updated the track automatically. Avid also bugs me in how timeline playback stops when you try to do anything. and the version at work has an issue with mpeg2 export that requires an ever frustrating workaround, and will not properly export quicktimes (half the audio at half the speed) but I digress.

At the moment I am trying to work out the details of upgrading to Media Composer 3 (a two step process from XDV) and getting a Dell laptop to replace the outdated desktop. It will also give me some flexibility in these times of ever increasing gas prices with the option of working at home a few days a week, which my boss seems cool with.

Trying to get a Dell laptop that will fit under Avid's "qualified systems" can be a challenge though.

Bill Ravens · June 4th, 2008, 07:01 AM

Bill..

I'm using a dell Inspiron e1705, 2 gig memory, external SATA hard drive. I replaced the stock Ati x1400 video card with an nVidia Go7900GT card and it works with Avid very well.

Bill Mecca · June 4th, 2008, 02:02 PM

Thanks for that Bill.

I went thru our "state government store" at Dell and put together a Latittude D830 with 4 gig Ram a 160 internal HD the 2.60 gHz T9500 proc,it has the NVIDIA Quadro NVS 140M video card. I have a 500 Gb firewire external drive on the current set up now and would transfer that over. (also thinking about a docking station when I am in the office, though we are at the end of the budget cycle and I don't know if there will be the $$ in the new fiscal year, but I have to plan)

One prevailing question is, "is it a good idea to switch over from desktop to laptop as the only edit system?" ( I will still have the old system here, heck I have Media Suite Pro sitting in the closet!)

Jeff Harper · June 4th, 2008, 02:14 PM

If I may interject, if your going for new, Bill and haven't ordered yet, the Precision Mobiles are actually designed more for desktop replacment than the Latitudes are, though the processor you've selected on the Latitude certainly sound great. The graphic card options are just a tad limited on the Latitudes unless I'm mistaken. I believe you want to avoid integrated graphics if at all possible.

Bill Ravens · June 4th, 2008, 02:25 PM

I agree with Jeff. AVOID integrated graphics solutions. Also, unless you're running a 64 bit OS, there's not much sense in going for 4 Gigs of memory. Put the $$$ for that last gig somewhere else.

I am not ready, myself, to write off my editing workstation to be replaced by a laptop. If nothing else, there's nothing quite like having dual 24" monitors to work by.

Jeff Harper · June 4th, 2008, 03:03 PM

Ya know, there is a Latitude available with 128Mb graphics. I don't know if there is one with 256. If you can get one of those you'd be in lot better shape. I was thinking that your government "store" may not have Precision Mobile laptops to offer any way. Your processor is certainly killer for a laptop though.

June 2nd, 2008, 08:54 PM	#34
Cliff Etzel Major Player Join Date: May 2006 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 325	Becoming a former Vegas user myself I use to see Bill post all the time over at the Vegas forums, but his recent posts about using Edius and now Avid reflect my frustrations with Vegas as well. Vegas basically has lost me money on my last project due to its inability to handle a large file from a voice recital I shot. In addition, I couldn't do a batch capture since it acquires footage in native m2t format - I had to install my old copy of Premiere Pro 1.5.1 to reacquire footage - a pain but made my life alot easier since I could work with numerous shorter clips instead of one continuous clip. I've also become interested in Avid - having tried Edius and not liking it at all so far (maybe my old habits of simple interfaces is getting in the way of learning proper editing technique). One of my biggest needs is integration with audio editing applications - I have other apps already and am intrigued by Media Composer - how does one take the audio track from a video clip and work with it in something like Adobe Audition? This feature is what I liked about Vegas and Premiere Pro, but as I read more about Avid's recommitment to its core market, I'm looking more at what MC has to offer since I am a one man shop who shoots short form doc type work - I'm tired of the loss of valuable time and money due to inadequacies of software like Vegas. __________________ Cliff Etzel - Photographer Website \| Blog

June 3rd, 2008, 06:50 AM	#37
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Cliff... You bring up a good question about audio capabilities in other NLE's, besides Vegas. Vegas handled the audio portion quite well; and it is, in fact something I miss. My current workflow is to render out the wav file and work the audio issues in Soundforge, then import back into Avid. I am resisting ProTools, because, while it is much of a digital music industry standard, it is not user friendly. Avid, while integrated with ProTools, doesn't have the neat way of inserting editted audio as a "take". But, I also use a number of other third party sound tools, such as HarBal, and Mackie's DAW, Traktion", which never integrated with Vegas anyway, so my workflow hasn't really been affected that much. I will say that Avid and ProTools are not easily learned. Not so easy as Vegas, anyway. The workflow is counter intuitive; and, the core software is outdated, having been written many years ago. Doing the wrong thing will result in a hard crash. Now that I know it, however, I like its flexibility and adaptability. Avid really shines with its file managment workflow. Try editting 50 clips in Vegas and keep track of everything. Avid handles that with ease. I'm waiting to see what Avid puts on the table for version 3. Best of all, Avid does seem to grasp the concept that they support working editors, not weekend editors. If you're a weekend editor, don't take offense. Just understand that your priorities are not the same as mine. Last edited by Bill Ravens; June 3rd, 2008 at 07:50 AM.

June 3rd, 2008, 11:33 AM	#40
Bill Mecca Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 475	I've enjoyed reading Bill's posts on his frustration with Vegas. I've edited on Avid since 1994, and currently use XDV 3.5 (at work) and Xpress Pro 4.2.(at home) One of the things that sold me on it way back when was how intuitive it was (180 degrees from Bill I guess) We used to cut 16mm film in the basement of the TV station and I picked up on that from the editors (I was a reporter at the time) so Avid's Clips, Bins, Sequences made the most sense to me compared to the other offerings at the time, Media 100 and the Imix Video Cube (remember that one?). I've messed around with Vegas 6 and there are some things I really like about it, and had considered switching here at work (solo video production office for a state agency) But I am just so atuned with Avid, that is how I work and I realized I was trying to make Vegas be Avid. (ain't gonna happen). If I could I would put the two into a blender and come up with the nearly perfect NLE... I love the way Vegas handles audio, I exported an audio track, worked on it in Audition, opened Vegas back up and it updated the track automatically. Avid also bugs me in how timeline playback stops when you try to do anything. and the version at work has an issue with mpeg2 export that requires an ever frustrating workaround, and will not properly export quicktimes (half the audio at half the speed) but I digress. At the moment I am trying to work out the details of upgrading to Media Composer 3 (a two step process from XDV) and getting a Dell laptop to replace the outdated desktop. It will also give me some flexibility in these times of ever increasing gas prices with the option of working at home a few days a week, which my boss seems cool with. Trying to get a Dell laptop that will fit under Avid's "qualified systems" can be a challenge though. __________________ Award-winning Pine Barrens Documentary! Video, Audio, Music & More

June 4th, 2008, 02:02 PM	#42
Bill Mecca Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: New Jersey Posts: 475	Thanks for that Bill. I went thru our "state government store" at Dell and put together a Latittude D830 with 4 gig Ram a 160 internal HD the 2.60 gHz T9500 proc,it has the NVIDIA Quadro NVS 140M video card. I have a 500 Gb firewire external drive on the current set up now and would transfer that over. (also thinking about a docking station when I am in the office, though we are at the end of the budget cycle and I don't know if there will be the $$ in the new fiscal year, but I have to plan) One prevailing question is, "is it a good idea to switch over from desktop to laptop as the only edit system?" ( I will still have the old system here, heck I have Media Suite Pro sitting in the closet!) __________________ Award-winning Pine Barrens Documentary! Video, Audio, Music & More

May 31st, 2008, 04:10 PM	#31
Sherif Choudhry Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: London Posts: 222	Very interesting thread - because of this unusual low cost of MC educational - in the UK at £200 ($400) - thats way below the educational cost of FCP. The hardware cost cancels out because i'd want to run on 2.6Ghz 4gb ram Macbook pro. So last "determinator" for me: assuming i use the same esata raid array on the MBPro, which gives me better real-time preview performance on hdv footage (when using 2-3 color correction filters and several video and audio tracks)? FCP or MC? Thanks!!

May 31st, 2008, 06:18 PM	#33
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	In my experience, the CC tool in Avid is extremely competent. There is no secondary CC tool, which is a significant drawback, but, it can be had with Colorista plugin. And the intrinsic ability to display real time...a true surprise. The REAL strength of Avid is in its file management bin tool. This is such an advantage when working with many clips, that I can't describe it unitl you experience it. Add in the variations in the edit tool, slip/slide, replace, 3 point edit, replace edit, etc., etc., never found another NLE that does this so cleanly. Not very user friendly, until you get it, then it is uniquely wonderful. I look forward to an edit session with Avid, unlike vegas, which I always entered into with some trepidation.

June 2nd, 2008, 11:38 PM	#35
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	AVID owns ProTools, so the export to ProTools is typically what you would want to do for advanced audio manipulations.

June 3rd, 2008, 05:40 AM	#36
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	Jeff, I'd appreciate you giving your feedback (even on the Vegas site?) after a couple of months on real projects using FCP, Avid, or whatever you decide to go to. I'm not as deep into videography as many of you, but I appreciate having a program as good as Vegas for $300. But 2 years ago I felt good about VMSP 8 and then outgrew it when I went to multiple cameras with multiple titles and multiple sound tracks. I've posted in the past asking people who were knowledgeable in Vegas, FCP, and Avid to share their pro's and con's of the 3. Very few who are proficient in FCP and Avid have a good working knowledge of Vegas. Unfortunately such discussions usually degenerate into a PC/Mac discussion. Perhaps you can give an level-headed evaluation later this year; perhaps even from the viewpoint of at what points a person may benefit from changing platforms.

June 3rd, 2008, 07:09 AM	#38
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	I will wear my weekend-editor/hacker badge with dignity and honor! It's interesting, for some of us who are doing personal and "industrial type work", say work instructions, project updates.... a clear, fast B+ with 10 hours of work is better business than an A+ with 100 hours. I would like for the B+ vesus A+ to be a decision and not a limitation, however.

June 4th, 2008, 07:01 AM	#41
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Bill.. I'm using a dell Inspiron e1705, 2 gig memory, external SATA hard drive. I replaced the stock Ati x1400 video card with an nVidia Go7900GT card and it works with Avid very well.

June 4th, 2008, 02:14 PM	#43
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	If I may interject, if your going for new, Bill and haven't ordered yet, the Precision Mobiles are actually designed more for desktop replacment than the Latitudes are, though the processor you've selected on the Latitude certainly sound great. The graphic card options are just a tad limited on the Latitudes unless I'm mistaken. I believe you want to avoid integrated graphics if at all possible.

June 4th, 2008, 02:25 PM	#44
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I agree with Jeff. AVOID integrated graphics solutions. Also, unless you're running a 64 bit OS, there's not much sense in going for 4 Gigs of memory. Put the $$$ for that last gig somewhere else. I am not ready, myself, to write off my editing workstation to be replaced by a laptop. If nothing else, there's nothing quite like having dual 24" monitors to work by.

June 4th, 2008, 03:03 PM	#45
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Ya know, there is a Latitude available with 128Mb graphics. I don't know if there is one with 256. If you can get one of those you'd be in lot better shape. I was thinking that your government "store" may not have Precision Mobile laptops to offer any way. Your processor is certainly killer for a laptop though.