Leaving Vegas...

Jeff Harper · May 30th, 2008, 12:18 AM

Thanks much for the tip, Peter, I appreciate it!

Sherif Choudhry · May 30th, 2008, 10:58 AM

Jeff, after yr research and the tips here, what fundamentally made u choose Avid over Apple FCP? Was it the PC platform? or simply avid's editing capabilities?

Richard, when u get a client job, how do you decide whether to use fcp or avid (lets assume the footage can be captured by both)

Thanks

Jeff Harper · May 30th, 2008, 12:27 PM

Price and platform Sherif. Avid's Media Composer is available for $299 (student discount) and is priced reasonalby enough that if I don't like it I haven't lost that much.

FCP comes in a complete suite, motion, etc., and is a much more complete solution, but I'm not willing or able to invest a minimum of $3k for hardware then another $700 for software at this point when I still need to buy more HD cameras.

John Miller · May 30th, 2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Price and platform Sherif. Avid's Media Composer is available for $299 (student discount) and is priced reasonalby enough that if I don't like it I haven't lost that much.

I've been following this thread with interest because I couldn't understand why anyone who had used Vegas (street price $470) would then be very critical of it when moving to Avid MC (street price $2300). Of course, the latter should be better but I don't think Vegas deserves the negative press.

Seeing that the step up to MC will only cost $299 for the student version explains it.

What I don't understand is how the $299 version can be used in a business.

Jeff Harper · May 30th, 2008, 02:13 PM

The $299 version of Media Composer is a full-featured version of their flagship product that formerly cost $5k, as I understand it. This is not freeware. It is used to edit more professional film and video than all other programs combined. I am not a proponent of it, or disparaging Vegas unfairly.

Vegas by Sony is not even mentioned in the stats when they talk about market share of professionsl video editing software. Additionally most pro plug-ins are designed for Avid, Final Cut or Premier, and that is just the way it is. I am sure you must know this John. Vegas is an afterthought, barely a blip on the screen.

Does Vegas deserve or not deserve negative press? Sony can take care of itself. Vegas is not my friend, it is a product, with strong points and weak points. If it is going to be a serious contender it will be subjected to more scrutiny than it will get on this board. I feel that I can have a person for a friend, but not a product. I personally love the Vegas board and think it is the best board out here. What amazing support we receive there.

I don't see that anyone extremely criticized Vegas anyway. I certainly didn't. There are many features in Vegas I haven't even tapped into yet, and it still serves me well. But I am slowly beginning to see why it is relatively unused in the professional realm, and from a personal perspective I see my viewpoint to be evidence of growth and open-mindedness, not disloyalty.

Bill Ravens · May 30th, 2008, 06:45 PM

so, what's your point john? where r u going with this?
for my $$$, vegas is not a professional app. they could care less about film output. what they want is the bob and barb home video crowd. Great to pretend they're pro's...it's all about image. It was written for audio and grew into a great little app for DV. DV is old history and Vegas hasn't kept up. These days, with high bitrate video, having a credible intermediate is where the technology is. Canopus has Canopus HQ, Avid has DNxHD, FCP has DVCPro50/100. Vegas has Cineform...oops, wait a minute, vegas is not the same company as Cineform(and, btw, vegas can't even integrate CFHD properly into their timeline). Vegas loves to tout that they're not a hardware dependent app....guess what, neither is anyone else, even Avid, these days. hmmmm.Not much more to say. FCP has moved into the market in a credible way. Sony/vegas has not. They continue to issue patches that don't work, drop frames or outright freeze-ups. their color timing is a joke. and they rely on third parties to issue manuals, instructional videos and documentation. vegas still works with 8 bit, every other app on the market can do 10 bit. what's wrong with vegas? LOL to think this is a question of a few bucks is myopic.

Jeff Harper · May 30th, 2008, 07:43 PM

please remove this post!

Bill Ravens · May 30th, 2008, 07:44 PM

oops....meant john, sorry

Jeff Harper · May 30th, 2008, 07:46 PM

please remove this post!

Bob Lange · May 30th, 2008, 08:30 PM

If you're good editor a $50 copy of Movie Studio will be enough. If you suck, a MC Nitris won't help. I made money with both. Avid leads in media management and ability to conform to the editor. I use MC for most work. Vegas Pro is not kiddie software either. A good editor with VP can steal your client.

To restate, a good editor with Vegas and a mediocre editor with Avid, the goal goes to the good editor.

A good editor with AVID MC and toolkits, is king.

-IMHO

Bill Ravens · May 30th, 2008, 08:47 PM

very true, so true. no arguements, here.

but you can be the best editor in the world and flush the whole thing by getting the color wrong. even a great editor can't compensate for software that doesn't work with color properly. and, I'll crank out a cuts only edit in 1/2 the time with Avid over vegas. and we haven't even scratched the surface regarding time to render out the master. all things being equal, all apps should render out in about the same amount of time. In vegas, it takes 2-3 tries to get the color right, longer if you opted for the funky 32 bit FP mode. But, Sony never told you that, so you spent some time learning that. In avid or edius 1x.

it's all a pixxing contest anyway. as you said, a good editor can edit in Windows movie maker, if they want to.

David Parks · May 30th, 2008, 09:52 PM

Without kicking Vegas anymore, i'll just brag on a project that I'm in the process of wrapping up editing on Avid. (I'll post a few clips in a few weeks if I get permission)

It's a project for the Lunar Sample Lab at Johnson Space Center. The project is both HD and SD with the final prduct being in both Bluray and DVD.

I really do appreciate how flexible Avid timelines are. DNXHD and Avid transcoding really do work better than people give them credit for.

It includes over 60+ hours of footage including DVCAM, Betcam SP, and newly shot HDV 30f. A mix of Apollo EVA footage, interviews, b-roll of the vault, the nitrogen cabinets, lots and lots of material. I was able to start the project in Avid Xpress Pro and updated to Media Composer 2.8. Didn't lose anything during the update which shows how stable the platform is. Every effect, master clip, trancode clips, etc. etc. etc. I'm moving between a notebook PC and a MAC Quad Core keeping all of my assets on a G-raid II one TB drive. We now have 10 seperate 3 to 5 minute fully cc'd sequences that will be authored in Encore BRD and Apple DVD studio.

And every sequence has a HDV 1080i version and a transcoded 30i 1:1 MXF version, so i have to track 20 sequences. Everything is organized into about 35 or more bins.

I say this because it became apparent to me that sometimes you have to experience a certain scale of project to fully understand why over 90% of feature films and television dramas and docs are edited on Avid.

In my case, the last thing you want to have happen is lose 3 months of work. I'm sure there are lots of projects that other edit systems can lay claim to. But i slept like a baby not worrying whether or not my sequences would ever go Media Offline.

Cheers.

Jeff Harper · May 31st, 2008, 01:33 AM

Bob, I agree wholeheartedly with you also. When it is all said and done, the biggest challenge with any project lies with my own creativity or lack thereof. No NLE can make up for my shortcomings nor can it stop me from turning out inspired work.

Simon Denny · May 31st, 2008, 03:31 AM

I love the debate over which NLE is better and i must admit i wonder which is?
Here in Australia i dont know one person using Avid, FCS is what everyone is using here.
I myself use Vegas but have allways looked over the fence at Avid and FCS and wonder how much more my editing would change, improve if i went with either Avid or FCS.
I have a version of Avid MC but editing with this does my head in. Vegas seems logical to me as a drop and drag editor, sure it's missing pluginns but video and audio right on the time line is a must for me and the codec to mpeg2 seems great.
Saying this, I allways go into the Apple shop and play around with FCS and wonder would i produce better quality video using this NLE.
Most editing jobs that i have seen advertised in Australia require you have a working knowlege on FCS.

My 2 cents worth.
Simon

Peter Moretti · May 31st, 2008, 03:34 AM

I've never worked on anything approaching David's project. But while learning Avid I sometimes feel like I'm getting walk in the footsteps of some of the finest editors. This piece of software has been used to cut more films and broadcasts than anything else out there. There is a certain history that I'm getting to touch.

It's crazy that (me) a guy sitting in his room with a P4 computer, two 16" monitors and a Quadro FX AGP 8X video card is getting to use essentially the same system that was used to cut George Clooney's latest film "Leatherheads."

That all said. I don't believe my comments on Vegas were critical. Actually I mentioned quite a few things that Vegas does better than Avid, IMHO.

May 30th, 2008, 06:45 PM	#21
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	so, what's your point john? where r u going with this? for my $$$, vegas is not a professional app. they could care less about film output. what they want is the bob and barb home video crowd. Great to pretend they're pro's...it's all about image. It was written for audio and grew into a great little app for DV. DV is old history and Vegas hasn't kept up. These days, with high bitrate video, having a credible intermediate is where the technology is. Canopus has Canopus HQ, Avid has DNxHD, FCP has DVCPro50/100. Vegas has Cineform...oops, wait a minute, vegas is not the same company as Cineform(and, btw, vegas can't even integrate CFHD properly into their timeline). Vegas loves to tout that they're not a hardware dependent app....guess what, neither is anyone else, even Avid, these days. hmmmm.Not much more to say. FCP has moved into the market in a credible way. Sony/vegas has not. They continue to issue patches that don't work, drop frames or outright freeze-ups. their color timing is a joke. and they rely on third parties to issue manuals, instructional videos and documentation. vegas still works with 8 bit, every other app on the market can do 10 bit. what's wrong with vegas? LOL to think this is a question of a few bucks is myopic. Last edited by Bill Ravens; May 30th, 2008 at 08:06 PM.

May 30th, 2008, 07:43 PM	#22
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	please remove this post! Last edited by Jeff Harper; May 31st, 2008 at 09:25 AM.

May 30th, 2008, 07:46 PM	#24
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	please remove this post! Last edited by Jeff Harper; May 31st, 2008 at 09:26 AM.

May 30th, 2008, 09:52 PM	#27
David Parks Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 789	Without kicking Vegas anymore, i'll just brag on a project that I'm in the process of wrapping up editing on Avid. (I'll post a few clips in a few weeks if I get permission) It's a project for the Lunar Sample Lab at Johnson Space Center. The project is both HD and SD with the final prduct being in both Bluray and DVD. I really do appreciate how flexible Avid timelines are. DNXHD and Avid transcoding really do work better than people give them credit for. It includes over 60+ hours of footage including DVCAM, Betcam SP, and newly shot HDV 30f. A mix of Apollo EVA footage, interviews, b-roll of the vault, the nitrogen cabinets, lots and lots of material. I was able to start the project in Avid Xpress Pro and updated to Media Composer 2.8. Didn't lose anything during the update which shows how stable the platform is. Every effect, master clip, trancode clips, etc. etc. etc. I'm moving between a notebook PC and a MAC Quad Core keeping all of my assets on a G-raid II one TB drive. We now have 10 seperate 3 to 5 minute fully cc'd sequences that will be authored in Encore BRD and Apple DVD studio. And every sequence has a HDV 1080i version and a transcoded 30i 1:1 MXF version, so i have to track 20 sequences. Everything is organized into about 35 or more bins. I say this because it became apparent to me that sometimes you have to experience a certain scale of project to fully understand why over 90% of feature films and television dramas and docs are edited on Avid. In my case, the last thing you want to have happen is lose 3 months of work. I'm sure there are lots of projects that other edit systems can lay claim to. But i slept like a baby not worrying whether or not my sequences would ever go Media Offline. Cheers. __________________ David Parks: DP/Editor: Jacobs Aerospace at NASA Johnson Space Center https://www.youtube.com/user/JacobsESCG

May 30th, 2008, 12:18 AM	#16
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Thanks much for the tip, Peter, I appreciate it!

May 30th, 2008, 10:58 AM	#17
Sherif Choudhry Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: London Posts: 222	Jeff, after yr research and the tips here, what fundamentally made u choose Avid over Apple FCP? Was it the PC platform? or simply avid's editing capabilities? Richard, when u get a client job, how do you decide whether to use fcp or avid (lets assume the footage can be captured by both) Thanks

May 30th, 2008, 12:27 PM	#18
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Price and platform Sherif. Avid's Media Composer is available for $299 (student discount) and is priced reasonalby enough that if I don't like it I haven't lost that much. FCP comes in a complete suite, motion, etc., and is a much more complete solution, but I'm not willing or able to invest a minimum of $3k for hardware then another $700 for software at this point when I still need to buy more HD cameras.

May 30th, 2008, 02:13 PM	#20
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	The $299 version of Media Composer is a full-featured version of their flagship product that formerly cost $5k, as I understand it. This is not freeware. It is used to edit more professional film and video than all other programs combined. I am not a proponent of it, or disparaging Vegas unfairly. Vegas by Sony is not even mentioned in the stats when they talk about market share of professionsl video editing software. Additionally most pro plug-ins are designed for Avid, Final Cut or Premier, and that is just the way it is. I am sure you must know this John. Vegas is an afterthought, barely a blip on the screen. Does Vegas deserve or not deserve negative press? Sony can take care of itself. Vegas is not my friend, it is a product, with strong points and weak points. If it is going to be a serious contender it will be subjected to more scrutiny than it will get on this board. I feel that I can have a person for a friend, but not a product. I personally love the Vegas board and think it is the best board out here. What amazing support we receive there. I don't see that anyone extremely criticized Vegas anyway. I certainly didn't. There are many features in Vegas I haven't even tapped into yet, and it still serves me well. But I am slowly beginning to see why it is relatively unused in the professional realm, and from a personal perspective I see my viewpoint to be evidence of growth and open-mindedness, not disloyalty.

May 30th, 2008, 07:44 PM	#23
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	oops....meant john, sorry

May 30th, 2008, 08:30 PM	#25
Bob Lange New Boot Join Date: May 2008 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 16	If you're good editor a $50 copy of Movie Studio will be enough. If you suck, a MC Nitris won't help. I made money with both. Avid leads in media management and ability to conform to the editor. I use MC for most work. Vegas Pro is not kiddie software either. A good editor with VP can steal your client. To restate, a good editor with Vegas and a mediocre editor with Avid, the goal goes to the good editor. A good editor with AVID MC and toolkits, is king. -IMHO

May 30th, 2008, 08:47 PM	#26
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	very true, so true. no arguements, here. but you can be the best editor in the world and flush the whole thing by getting the color wrong. even a great editor can't compensate for software that doesn't work with color properly. and, I'll crank out a cuts only edit in 1/2 the time with Avid over vegas. and we haven't even scratched the surface regarding time to render out the master. all things being equal, all apps should render out in about the same amount of time. In vegas, it takes 2-3 tries to get the color right, longer if you opted for the funky 32 bit FP mode. But, Sony never told you that, so you spent some time learning that. In avid or edius 1x. it's all a pixxing contest anyway. as you said, a good editor can edit in Windows movie maker, if they want to.

May 31st, 2008, 01:33 AM	#28
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Bob, I agree wholeheartedly with you also. When it is all said and done, the biggest challenge with any project lies with my own creativity or lack thereof. No NLE can make up for my shortcomings nor can it stop me from turning out inspired work.

May 31st, 2008, 03:31 AM	#29
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	I love the debate over which NLE is better and i must admit i wonder which is? Here in Australia i dont know one person using Avid, FCS is what everyone is using here. I myself use Vegas but have allways looked over the fence at Avid and FCS and wonder how much more my editing would change, improve if i went with either Avid or FCS. I have a version of Avid MC but editing with this does my head in. Vegas seems logical to me as a drop and drag editor, sure it's missing pluginns but video and audio right on the time line is a must for me and the codec to mpeg2 seems great. Saying this, I allways go into the Apple shop and play around with FCS and wonder would i produce better quality video using this NLE. Most editing jobs that i have seen advertised in Australia require you have a working knowlege on FCS. My 2 cents worth. Simon

May 31st, 2008, 03:34 AM	#30
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	I've never worked on anything approaching David's project. But while learning Avid I sometimes feel like I'm getting walk in the footsteps of some of the finest editors. This piece of software has been used to cut more films and broadcasts than anything else out there. There is a certain history that I'm getting to touch. It's crazy that (me) a guy sitting in his room with a P4 computer, two 16" monitors and a Quadro FX AGP 8X video card is getting to use essentially the same system that was used to cut George Clooney's latest film "Leatherheads." That all said. I don't believe my comments on Vegas were critical. Actually I mentioned quite a few things that Vegas does better than Avid, IMHO.