consumer vs. professional formats, and 24p again. at DVinfo.net

Hans Ledel · July 18th, 2006, 02:21 PM

Check this out

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Camcorders.htm

Cheers

Hans

Rafael Lopes · July 18th, 2006, 02:26 PM

Yes, I saw that. Too bad there's no more info to be found anywhere. I'm very curious about it.

Stu Holmes · July 18th, 2006, 03:10 PM

NYC conference.

Full details prob within 8 or10hrs from Tokyo Sony announcement IMO.

Kevin Shaw · July 18th, 2006, 03:31 PM

The HDR-SR1 sounds interesting. What are current editing options for footage from these cameras?

Barry Green · July 18th, 2006, 03:47 PM

Most interesting is that they addressed the short-record-time thing head on. In the DVD version they're using double-layer, which they say lets them get 1 hour of recording time (wonder what the bitrate is at that though? 6 megabits maybe?)

Then they introduced a hard-disk model too. They claim up to 10 hours of recording time on that (30gb hard disk?)

Solomon Chase · July 18th, 2006, 04:05 PM

I hope these have better manual control than their Standard Def counterparts.

That, and better low-light than the Sanyo HD1.

EDIT: looks like they brought back the manual focus ring, dedicated mic and headphone jacks :)

Mike Curtis · July 18th, 2006, 04:18 PM

Barry - I think 6 mbit is definitely in the ballpark - just running the math:

1.4 GB is single layer, therefore
2.8 GB is a reasonable guess for dual layer
divide 2.8/3.6 converts GB/hr to MB/sec, (that's a handy bit o' math to remember, BTW/FYI)
multiply by 8 to get megabits/sec - 6.3

I've posted some thoughts on the new format over at hdforindies -

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/07/f...amcorders.html

Will update as more info emerges.

The biggest issue I see is this - OK folks....how are we going to edit this stuff? Native NLE support is how many months away at best?

As for the hard drive - 30GB sounds about right as well at this data rate....unless they are dropping the data rate even lower (as the statement implies) and it is a smaller drive.

-mike

Harrison Murchison · July 18th, 2006, 04:21 PM

Count me in as a HDR-SR1 fan. I want decent recording times and no media to exchange.

I didn't think they'd have product so fast. My goodness, well next years going to be a HD explosion for me I guess.

Mike Curtis · July 18th, 2006, 04:32 PM

Harrison - what would you want to use it for - home movie stuff? At this point, the format is pretty much uneditable as far as I can tell - perhaps Sony will bundle something with the cameras?

As far as I can tell, you can play discs off the camera connected to TV, or copy to computer and play from there. But editing? Somebody please let me know what's possible, now or in the near future (anything beyond NLE vendors' "expressed interest")?

Not picking on you, just trying to understand the usage case.

-mike

Boyd Ostroff · July 18th, 2006, 04:56 PM

Note: I've had to do some editing here. For legal reasons, please don't post information about how to access "secret folders" on other websites.

Thanks.

Barry Green · July 18th, 2006, 05:56 PM

For editing, I would certainly expect that the reason Sony Vegas 7 wasn't introduced at NAB, but instead was delayed until later this year, would be to add AVC-HD support... just a guess, but I'd be surprised if I was wrong.

Harrison Murchison · July 18th, 2006, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Curtis

Harrison - what would you want to use it for - home movie stuff? At this point, the format is pretty much uneditable as far as I can tell - perhaps Sony will bundle something with the cameras?

As far as I can tell, you can play discs off the camera connected to TV, or copy to computer and play from there. But editing? Somebody please let me know what's possible, now or in the near future (anything beyond NLE vendors' "expressed interest")?

Not picking on you, just trying to understand the usage case.

-mike

It's cool Mike I know you're a standup guy. I'm only looking at this for consumer "video of the kids" stuff. In fact Sony and Panny will most likely position this as strictly a consumer format. That way they don't step on the toes of their Pro gear.

Long term I'm looking forward to seeing what Panny can do with AVC-Intra but the first products coming will be way beyond my budget.

Kevin Shaw · July 18th, 2006, 06:28 PM

I think Cineform has suggested they'll move quickly to support new formats like this, and their past track record seems pretty good on that point. Canopus has also been doing a competent job of incorporating multiple formats, but probably not as quickly.

I'm not keen on the idea of trying to edit MPEG4 video given how tough it is to work with MPEG2, but solutions will no doubt be forthcoming. What I'd like to know is when we might see more professional cameras based on this recording format, like the one proposed by Panasonic.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · July 18th, 2006, 08:20 PM

Didn't know the news/model numbers were leaking already, but our NDA doesn't expire until the announcement tomorrow.
Suffice it to say for now, these are *consumer* camcorders. Not professional by *any* stretch of the imagination. Doesn't mean they're not useable, but they are built for, aimed at, and supported for mom/pop shooters.

Wayne Morellini · July 18th, 2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Curtis

Barry - I think 6 mbit is definitely in the ballpark - just running the math:

1.4 GB is single layer, therefore
2.8 GB is a reasonable guess for dual layer
divide 2.8/3.6 converts GB/hr to MB/sec, (that's a handy bit o' math to remember, BTW/FYI)
multiply by 8 to get megabits/sec - 6.3

I've posted some thoughts on the new format over at hdforindies -

http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/07/f...amcorders.html

Will update as more info emerges.

The biggest issue I see is this - OK folks....how are we going to edit this stuff? Native NLE support is how many months away at best?

As for the hard drive - 30GB sounds about right as well at this data rate....unless they are dropping the data rate even lower (as the statement implies) and it is a smaller drive.

-mike

There is also some discussion on the recent announcement of 1 hour of HD on 4GB, which is about 9Mb/s. But I mention that on the Ambarella site they also talk about HD in 6 mbit/s (I think) so I fear that this is also possible, and undesirable:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....8&postcount=93

July 18th, 2006, 02:21 PM	#1
Hans Ledel Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 184	consumer vs. professional formats, and 24p again. Check this out http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Camcorders.htm Cheers Hans __________________ Remember, that English is my second language.

July 18th, 2006, 04:18 PM	#7
Mike Curtis HD for Indies Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: United States Posts: 87	AVCHD data rate, thoughts on the format Barry - I think 6 mbit is definitely in the ballpark - just running the math: 1.4 GB is single layer, therefore 2.8 GB is a reasonable guess for dual layer divide 2.8/3.6 converts GB/hr to MB/sec, (that's a handy bit o' math to remember, BTW/FYI) multiply by 8 to get megabits/sec - 6.3 I've posted some thoughts on the new format over at hdforindies - http://www.hdforindies.com/2006/07/f...amcorders.html Will update as more info emerges. The biggest issue I see is this - OK folks....how are we going to edit this stuff? Native NLE support is how many months away at best? As for the hard drive - 30GB sounds about right as well at this data rate....unless they are dropping the data rate even lower (as the statement implies) and it is a smaller drive. -mike __________________ Mike Curtis HD For Indies - Hi Def Filmmaking & Post for Independent Filmmakers http://www.hdforindies.com mike@hdforindies.com

July 18th, 2006, 04:32 PM	#9
Mike Curtis HD for Indies Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: United States Posts: 87	on AVCHD Harrison - what would you want to use it for - home movie stuff? At this point, the format is pretty much uneditable as far as I can tell - perhaps Sony will bundle something with the cameras? As far as I can tell, you can play discs off the camera connected to TV, or copy to computer and play from there. But editing? Somebody please let me know what's possible, now or in the near future (anything beyond NLE vendors' "expressed interest")? Not picking on you, just trying to understand the usage case. -mike __________________ Mike Curtis HD For Indies - Hi Def Filmmaking & Post for Independent Filmmakers http://www.hdforindies.com mike@hdforindies.com

July 18th, 2006, 08:20 PM	#14
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Didn't know the news/model numbers were leaking already, but our NDA doesn't expire until the announcement tomorrow. Suffice it to say for now, these are consumer camcorders. Not professional by any stretch of the imagination. Doesn't mean they're not useable, but they are built for, aimed at, and supported for mom/pop shooters. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

July 18th, 2006, 02:26 PM	#2
Rafael Lopes Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rio de Janeiro Posts: 1,240	Yes, I saw that. Too bad there's no more info to be found anywhere. I'm very curious about it.

July 18th, 2006, 03:10 PM	#3
Stu Holmes Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 844	NYC conference. Full details prob within 8 or10hrs from Tokyo Sony announcement IMO.

July 18th, 2006, 03:31 PM	#4
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	The HDR-SR1 sounds interesting. What are current editing options for footage from these cameras?

July 18th, 2006, 03:47 PM	#5
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Most interesting is that they addressed the short-record-time thing head on. In the DVD version they're using double-layer, which they say lets them get 1 hour of recording time (wonder what the bitrate is at that though? 6 megabits maybe?) Then they introduced a hard-disk model too. They claim up to 10 hours of recording time on that (30gb hard disk?)

July 18th, 2006, 04:05 PM	#6
Solomon Chase Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Woodstock, Georgia Posts: 154	I hope these have better manual control than their Standard Def counterparts. That, and better low-light than the Sanyo HD1. EDIT: looks like they brought back the manual focus ring, dedicated mic and headphone jacks :)

July 18th, 2006, 04:21 PM	#8
Harrison Murchison Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 243	Count me in as a HDR-SR1 fan. I want decent recording times and no media to exchange. I didn't think they'd have product so fast. My goodness, well next years going to be a HD explosion for me I guess.

July 18th, 2006, 04:56 PM	#10
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,800	Note: I've had to do some editing here. For legal reasons, please don't post information about how to access "secret folders" on other websites. Thanks.

July 18th, 2006, 05:56 PM	#11
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	For editing, I would certainly expect that the reason Sony Vegas 7 wasn't introduced at NAB, but instead was delayed until later this year, would be to add AVC-HD support... just a guess, but I'd be surprised if I was wrong.

July 18th, 2006, 06:28 PM	#13
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	I think Cineform has suggested they'll move quickly to support new formats like this, and their past track record seems pretty good on that point. Canopus has also been doing a competent job of incorporating multiple formats, but probably not as quickly. I'm not keen on the idea of trying to edit MPEG4 video given how tough it is to work with MPEG2, but solutions will no doubt be forthcoming. What I'd like to know is when we might see more professional cameras based on this recording format, like the one proposed by Panasonic.