Is Panasonic's 24P "Digital Cinema" worthless? at DVinfo.net

Keith Moreau · April 20th, 2009, 07:38 PM

I just got a Panasonic SD100, they were a good deal and the SD300 delivery was just delayed from April 15 to May 15 (according to where I had ordered it.)

I have a Sony EX1, I'm thinking of getting a JVC HM100 when they're out, but I need a small, lightweight camcorder like the SD100 or SD300 for various reasons.

I really like the SD100's manual focusing and other manual controls. However, I tried out the 24P Cinema mode and I'm thinking it's really not that great. First of all the color is all out of whack because "Digital Cinema Color" is forced on you in 24P. Then when I was reviewing the images, they seemed really grainy. It's almost like it's just 60i that's been de-interlaced (badly).

I got a SD9 last year and returned it immediately because of awful 24P I already had a Panasonic SD1 which is actually really good, but 60i. I guess the SD100 is better but...

I'd love to have some type of progressive output from one of these cheap AVCHD camcorders but it doesn't seem that the Digital Cinema it. I guess I'll have to deinterlace in post. Any thoughts on this?

Hanno di Rosa · April 21st, 2009, 06:04 AM

I use Canon HV20 for this sort of stuff....works for me...ooops no AVCHD :-)

Buba Kastorski · April 21st, 2009, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Moreau

I have a Sony EX1, I'm thinking of getting a JVC HM100 when they're out, but I need a small, lightweight camcorder like the SD100 or SD300 for various reasons.

I would wait a bit for a HS/TM300, when it's out I might even sell HFS10, which has great 24/30p, but first I need to side-by-side them

Henry Olonga · April 21st, 2009, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buba Kastorski

I would wait a bit for a HS/TM300, when it's out I might even sell HFS10, which has great 24/30p, but first I need to side-by-side them

Buba - you may well hang on to your HFS10 for a while longer.Trust me - had both (TM300) and in my personal tests it is miles ahead.Personal opinion.
best wishes.

Keith Moreau · April 21st, 2009, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Olonga

Buba - you may well hang on to your HFS10 for a while longer.Trust me - had both (TM300) and in my personal tests it is miles ahead.Personal opinion.
best wishes.

So are you saying the HFS10 is better than the TM300? You've tested the TM300 (it's not available yet, so you got a pre-release?)

I've heard the Canon's are better than the Panasonic, but I NEED the manual focus and other manual controls to do what I do, hence the desire for the Pansonic SD100 or TM300.

If anybody out there has used the Panasonic 24P 'Digital Cinema' mode successfully or not, I'd like your input! Thanks.

Duane Prince · April 21st, 2009, 10:51 AM

Hi there... I also have an SD100 & I really enjoy it...

I haven't used the 24p mode much at all, but like you, I noticed a grainier image...
I don't know if this is an issue or something the NLE is introducing? I use Vegas Pro... Overall the SD100 seems a little grainy, but I don't see it as a bad thing....

I recently took the cam on a hike, & got some great footage using the 24p mode, & I have'nt noticed the colors being whacked just more saturated though...

What do you mean by successfully? I haven't done anything with the footage yet, just previewing on my PC monitor & 52" plasma TV.... looks great!

Keith Moreau · April 21st, 2009, 03:50 PM

It does look good. Actually though I think the 24P quality is not there, by that I mean it's worse than the 60i de-interlaced. From what I can see the resolution isn't there in 24P, so you might as well de-interlace in post. The 60i video does look very good. I just wanted progressive if it was possible.

Duane Prince · April 21st, 2009, 04:12 PM

You're right, the detail just doesn't seem to be there... I've taken a video PNG still(from 24p) into photoshop, & yes, it's progressive scan, but the image seems quite soft overall....

That being said, I find it pleasing to my eye, on playback... The TM300 should have a more detailed image, with its larger sensors....

Henry Olonga · April 23rd, 2009, 06:11 AM

Hi Keith,
It has been out for a while here in the UK but you need to know where to look.I received one of the first TM300 to hit the UK.Called Panasonic and they put me in touch with shop at panasonic.co.uk . They had three in stock and I ordered one.Got it next day and to be honest it was not an upgrade on my SR11.Low light was not great and detail was not as crisp as the Sony which is a year or so old.This was all a live comparison to my Sony Bravia 40 inch LCD via HDMI.

It did have cool 24p though ( so I found it genuine) and in good light it was good though had less resolution to my eye.I sent it back however and I got the HFS10 and it is miles better than the Sony.
Don't let me talk you out of it mate.If you find your tests are contrary to my findings then accept my apologies as this is all subjective.I never got far enough as recording anything but it was easy for me to see it was not what I needed.Don't get me wrong - the picture is fine for a consumer but I think the HFS10 gives a better semi pro - professioanl picture.

Not sure how the Panasonic records it's 24p.Is it in a 60i stream or native24p?If it is in a stream I have read that pulldown removal is needed to get the 24 discreete frames.Without this process you may induce artifcats and lose resoultion.Cineform is your friend.

Anyway - proof of the pudding of how good the Canon can be

Second HFS10 Composite HD capture to Cineform on Vimeo

_________________
My vimeo page: http://vimeo.com/henryolonga/videos
My website: www.henryolonga.net

Keith Moreau · April 23rd, 2009, 08:24 AM

Henry, thanks for the information. From the little I know about the new Canon AVCHD offerings, the do have superlative picture quality. The main thing that attracts me to the to the Panasonic consumer AVCHD camcorders such as the SD100 (which I just got) and the TM300 (which is a small upgrade to the SD100 from what I can see) over the others is the manual controls, primarily the focus ring.

As far as I know none of the other small consumer AVCHD camcorders don't have this. For what I do I need to have the manual control, the auto focusing or other non-ring types of manual focusing (such as on my Panasonic SD1 joystick) is too tedious, inefficient and inaccurate.

Thanks again for your input on the TM300.

April 20th, 2009, 07:38 PM	#1
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	Is Panasonic's 24P "Digital Cinema" worthless? I just got a Panasonic SD100, they were a good deal and the SD300 delivery was just delayed from April 15 to May 15 (according to where I had ordered it.) I have a Sony EX1, I'm thinking of getting a JVC HM100 when they're out, but I need a small, lightweight camcorder like the SD100 or SD300 for various reasons. I really like the SD100's manual focusing and other manual controls. However, I tried out the 24P Cinema mode and I'm thinking it's really not that great. First of all the color is all out of whack because "Digital Cinema Color" is forced on you in 24P. Then when I was reviewing the images, they seemed really grainy. It's almost like it's just 60i that's been de-interlaced (badly). I got a SD9 last year and returned it immediately because of awful 24P I already had a Panasonic SD1 which is actually really good, but 60i. I guess the SD100 is better but... I'd love to have some type of progressive output from one of these cheap AVCHD camcorders but it doesn't seem that the Digital Cinema it. I guess I'll have to deinterlace in post. Any thoughts on this?

April 21st, 2009, 10:51 AM	#6
Duane Prince Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: central AZ. Posts: 36	owner also... Hi there... I also have an SD100 & I really enjoy it... I haven't used the 24p mode much at all, but like you, I noticed a grainier image... I don't know if this is an issue or something the NLE is introducing? I use Vegas Pro... Overall the SD100 seems a little grainy, but I don't see it as a bad thing.... I recently took the cam on a hike, & got some great footage using the 24p mode, & I have'nt noticed the colors being whacked just more saturated though... What do you mean by successfully? I haven't done anything with the footage yet, just previewing on my PC monitor & 52" plasma TV.... looks great! __________________ tumbleweed

April 21st, 2009, 04:12 PM	#8
Duane Prince Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: central AZ. Posts: 36	you're right... You're right, the detail just doesn't seem to be there... I've taken a video PNG still(from 24p) into photoshop, & yes, it's progressive scan, but the image seems quite soft overall.... That being said, I find it pleasing to my eye, on playback... The TM300 should have a more detailed image, with its larger sensors.... __________________ tumbleweed

April 23rd, 2009, 06:11 AM	#9
Henry Olonga Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: London Posts: 201	Hi Keith, It has been out for a while here in the UK but you need to know where to look.I received one of the first TM300 to hit the UK.Called Panasonic and they put me in touch with shop at panasonic.co.uk . They had three in stock and I ordered one.Got it next day and to be honest it was not an upgrade on my SR11.Low light was not great and detail was not as crisp as the Sony which is a year or so old.This was all a live comparison to my Sony Bravia 40 inch LCD via HDMI. It did have cool 24p though ( so I found it genuine) and in good light it was good though had less resolution to my eye.I sent it back however and I got the HFS10 and it is miles better than the Sony. Don't let me talk you out of it mate.If you find your tests are contrary to my findings then accept my apologies as this is all subjective.I never got far enough as recording anything but it was easy for me to see it was not what I needed.Don't get me wrong - the picture is fine for a consumer but I think the HFS10 gives a better semi pro - professioanl picture. Not sure how the Panasonic records it's 24p.Is it in a 60i stream or native24p?If it is in a stream I have read that pulldown removal is needed to get the 24 discreete frames.Without this process you may induce artifcats and lose resoultion.Cineform is your friend. Anyway - proof of the pudding of how good the Canon can be Second HFS10 Composite HD capture to Cineform on Vimeo _________________ My vimeo page: http://vimeo.com/henryolonga/videos My website: www.henryolonga.net __________________ My vimeo page: http://vimeo.com/henryolonga/videos My website: www.henryolonga.net

April 21st, 2009, 06:04 AM	#2
Hanno di Rosa Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Tuscany Italy Posts: 38	I use Canon HV20 for this sort of stuff....works for me...ooops no AVCHD :-)

April 21st, 2009, 03:50 PM	#7
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	It does look good. Actually though I think the 24P quality is not there, by that I mean it's worse than the 60i de-interlaced. From what I can see the resolution isn't there in 24P, so you might as well de-interlace in post. The 60i video does look very good. I just wanted progressive if it was possible.

April 23rd, 2009, 08:24 AM	#10
Keith Moreau Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane, California Posts: 530	Henry, thanks for the information. From the little I know about the new Canon AVCHD offerings, the do have superlative picture quality. The main thing that attracts me to the to the Panasonic consumer AVCHD camcorders such as the SD100 (which I just got) and the TM300 (which is a small upgrade to the SD100 from what I can see) over the others is the manual controls, primarily the focus ring. As far as I know none of the other small consumer AVCHD camcorders don't have this. For what I do I need to have the manual control, the auto focusing or other non-ring types of manual focusing (such as on my Panasonic SD1 joystick) is too tedious, inefficient and inaccurate. Thanks again for your input on the TM300.