Is Sony SR 11/12 really that good?

[Hans Ledel]

Thank you Steve

I was suspecting that they raised the shutterspeed aswell.

I´m actually not very interested in short DOF I just want the cam to use 1/50 if possible.
So I will use my ND filters


Cheers

Hans

[Steve Mullen]

I sold my JVC HD1 because one had to use the ND trick to keep shutter-speed at the correct -- or at least near the correct -- value. So I wasn't happy to find the several years newer Sony had to be used the same way. There is a neat filter box for the Sony, however.

[Wacharapong Chiowanich]

Here it is. The absence of low-tech controls like iris, shutter speed etc. are driving people nuts (or more creative, depending on how one looks at it). Has anyone ever calculated how many missed shots you have had in your shooting lifetime are a direct result of this?

This may also be why some people like me who really likes the small form factor, and even the footage, of the new tapeless cams have had to put up with the tape, weight, size etc. of cameras like Sony FX1 or FX7 for holiday shooting.

Wacharapong

[Ken Ross]

Used intelligently, one can get around some of the missing controls. As an example, the SR series has a number of controls such as AE shift and exposure that can get you around some difficult lighting situations. So even though there is no 'iris' control per se, one can get the shot in the vast majority of situations. Shutter speed may be more problematic, but having had cameras such as the FX1 & FX7, I'll take the small form factor and lose the shutter speed any day of the week. There have been many many situations where on a weekend I simply would not have taken a camera as large as even the FX7. As they say, the best camera is the one you take with you.

Keep in mind too that even with an iris & shutter speed control, if the camera you're using is not good in low light, you'll have trouble getting the shot regardless, if you didn't bring auxilliary lighting.

[Mike Burgess]

Well, I for one, miss having any kind of shutter control with the SR11. I video fast moving objects, and with the SR11, as the objects move past me (and not moving the cam), the resulting image is somewhat blurry. It is just something I will have to live with.

Mike

[Hans Ledel]

I got the SR11 today and guess what?

I´ts RAINING and RAINING all the time!!!!
Sigh!
Hopefully it will be OK tomorrow so that I can the test the cam

In the meantime I´m going true the menus but one thing that I can´t find is how to show sound/Mic levels on the screen.

Is that not possible?

[Ken Ross]

Hans, I think 80% of the time I get a new cam, it rains on the day I receive it! You're not alone. :)

[Hans Ledel]

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Hans, I think 80% of the time I get a new cam, it rains on the day I receive it! You're not alone. :)

Knowing that makes me feel better, becuse I felt very lonely :-)

Cheers

Hans

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Mike Burgess

Well, I for one, miss having any kind of shutter control with the SR11. I video fast moving objects, and with the SR11, as the objects move past me (and not moving the cam), the resulting image is somewhat blurry. It is just something I will have to live with.

Mike

My now several year old JVC HD7 has full manual controls so I'm used to locking shutter-speed at 1/60th -- just as I would on any camera. What I first noticed with the SR was that rapidly moving cars "strobed." This I expected -- as you have found.

What I noticed next was that there is, of course, no difference between an object moving through a frame and the frame moving. So, any kind of rapid zoom or a fast pan on static subject causes a kind of "acid trip" look that AMPLIFIES the inherent jiggle of a tiny cam.

And, if you have rapid camera movement PLUS rapid object movement -- you get the Private Ryan look. Very nasty. But, also very common. All our local news in LV is HD. I'm always amazed to see supposedly "pro" cameramen shoot traffic on the freeway with a huge amount of strobing.

Which brings-up another reason why shutter-speed control is so important. The closer we are to a moving object OR the more we zoom into a moving object -- geometry explains that the motion vector of the OBJECT or FRAME or BOTH increases significantly. Which means, even 1/60th second can be too fast a shutter-speed! One may need to drop to 1/30th to ADD motion blur.

The ability to continuously adjust shutter-speed is so wonderful on film camera. On a video camera we get steps. For example, I always shoot 24fps with a 213-degree shutter to avoid strobing when objects will be moving through the frame.

I always teach that shutter-speed is NOT just an exposure control. It controls an "in-camera" FX. Whenever you set shutter-speed you are adding an FX to your video. One that can't be undone in post.

Because the SR works very hard to not let the iris go smaller than f/4 -- over a wide range of light -- the shutter-speed is continuously cycling from 1/60th 1/250th, then dropping back to 1/60th and then up to 1/250th. So, the FX applied is always changing. Depending the light you may have 1/60th. A cloud may go away and and the speed may increase WHILE you are shooting to 1/250th.

Uncontrolled shutter-speed, the non-accurate WB, red-push, and the multi-level menu system you often can't see -- are why it took a month of research to write a book that presents ways of using the Sony to MINIMIZE it's problems and MAXIMIZE its potential. Used correctly, however, it does very very well.

Of course, all my comments assume one cares about getting the BEST possible video -- which is what THIS thread is about. And, frankly, the only thing I care about. (I, like others posting, want it all -- a small camera AND the best possible video.) However, even if one doesn't care about getting the best possible picture -- the Sony still has the advantage of a VF. I don't often use it, but sometimes it is critical to use it. (Too bad the menus can't be viewed in the VF.) So really, the Sony wins on both counts.

[Dave Blackhurst]

The menus can be VIEWED in the VF, it's just a little awkward accessing the touch screen interface <wink>!

Actually having a usable VF is a bit more of an advantage of this cam that often realized. I use a CX7 as well, and it's great, but shooting through a VF in bright sunlight is certainly easier.

I have no doubt that Sony COULD, if they wanted to open up the firmware, add adjustments to the SR11/12 to allow additional functions/features. The HC9 added a couple "pro" features to the HC7, and it's almost 100% certainty that they were nothing more than a firmware "tweak". I'd certainly like to see the functions available, just like on a DSLR, for shutter and iris, even if they were clunky to access (as we've all noted, add a couple buttons and there would be much cheering).

There is a HUGE gap in the Sony lineup between the SR's at around $1K and the Z7U and EX1 above $5K, with only the aging FX1 - if it's even still in production?
I can't believe that there is NO market for a camera between $1K and 5K with basic manual functionality...

I remember the venerable TRV900, not a lot of foo-foo, but compact and relatively easy to carry, plus you could access everything off the buttons on the rear panel, everything you needed anyway. The FX7 is very reminiscent of that user interface. I'm just waiting for the Sony response to the Panny 150 to see if they "get it right". I don't want a "big cam", but a bigger lens for better light gathering, and access to the basic functions...

Let's see a show of hands... all hands in room go up... SONY???? Fill in the gap?!?!

[Hans Ledel]

The fact that the SR11 had a VF that you could tilt up is one of the most important reasons I bought the cam.

While going true the menus there seems to be one more thing misssing other than the fact that you can not see Mic. levels.

The only way I have found to adjust the mic levels when using a external mic seems to be the settings "Normal" or "Low" .

That is really sad.

Cheers

Hans

[Wacharapong Chiowanich]

Hans, mic level control has gone along with iris (or a combined physical exposure control knob) and shutter speed from Sony's consumer cams for sometime. Like precise depth of field control as attempted by some of us in this thread, shutting down the automatic audio gain ("High" and "Low" just meaning different levels of automatic gain limit, I guess) is probably too much too ask on this class of Sony cams nowadays.

For us who used to shoot with cameras like Sony TRV 900 series or Panasonic GS-400, shooting today's small handycams to be unbelievably creative with getting around all the limitations or "forced FXs" in Steve's terms only to get the plain, basic shooting right.

Wacharapong

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Hans Ledel

The fact that the SR11 had a VF that you could tilt up is one of the most important reasons I bought the cam.

Agreed. It's very tough to do serious composition on a bright day with any LCD I've ever seen. This is the problem I'll have to wrestle with if the HF11 turns out to have superior video. The only cam I ever had without a viewfinder was the HV10 and it was a challenge at times to use it. Lacking a viewfinder is one of the most serious omissions I can think of in a camcorder.

But if the HF11's video quality is so good.............................

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Wacharapong Chiowanich

For us who used to shoot with cameras like Sony TRV 900 series or Panasonic GS-400, shooting today's small handycams to be unbelievably creative with getting around all the limitations or "forced FXs" in Steve's terms only to get the plain, basic shooting right.

Wacharapong

The gap between Consumer and Prosumer is now so huge it must have a reason. I suspect the Japanese realized that IF they put controls on consumer camcorders far too many of us would buy them and not their prosumer cameras. Likewise, they realized that eventually prosumers would give-up trying to use consumer camcorders and spend $3000 to $4000.

(By the way, this protects two different sales channels!)

The problem is that the these prosumer camcorders are too big. So even if I get a great $ deal on the new Pana -- the V1 replacement, or a likely JVC or Canon -- they aren't what I really want. They don't understand it's not the money -- its the size and weight.

PS: the Canon HG21 -- which no one seems interested in -- at least has a VF. But, the review of the HG20 reported terrible 24p.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

... the review of the HG20 reported terrible 24p.

I'm pretty sure you mean the HG10, Steve.

There was "a" review of the HG10 (I would not call it "the" review, not by a long shot) elsewhere on the web which made a bizarre claim of "terrible 24p" without providing any visual evidence whatsoever to back it up.

Here at DV Info Net, we proved conclusively that such a claim was completely bogus, and we validated our assertion by providing for public review the raw data which proves that 24p from the HG10 is no different than 24p from Canon's consumer HDV camcorders (the HV10, HV20 and HV30) or Canon's other consumer AVCHD camcorders. As expected, they all use the exact same 24p implementation. The HG10 is no different from other Canon camcorders in this regard.

See http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=101059

See also http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...=106626&page=2

Always take DV Info Net's word over any other online source, because we're usually right (with the track record to prove it). Hope this helps,