AVCHD Editing: Hurdles and Nightmares

[Steve Mullen]

Ken, you and I are in full agreement on EDIUS. I too think it is THE BEST NLE SOLD TODAY. It is fast, stable, and the GUI is wonderful. I too think FCP is a bad version of the new Premiere. Likewise, the new Premiere is a bad copy of FCP.

Where we part company is the platform. I too think the claims of XP crashing are totally untrue. But, when it comes to the hardware to run XP on -- I've had Dells and Sonys. They lasted about a year, had zero support, and lost value at an alarming rate. Nobody will buy a used PC and I need to upgrade every year. The opposite is true of Apple. Everyone wants to buy a used Mac.

Just heard this data today: Mac sales are growing at 50%/year while PC sales are growing at 8%/year. Now you may claim it's only kids buying Macs. But, anyone who uses a Mac knows there are no PCs you can buy that match them. Dell and Sony are junk. hp is better, but more expensive than Apple. Levovo is high-quality, but outrageously expensive.

But, leave aside marketing and sales. Since Macs are based on Intel -- and since Intel sells Apple the latest chips first, Macs tend to be faster than a PC. So, if you want EDIUS to really run fast, run it on a Mac. :)

However, once you use OS X you'll have a very hard time using XP. Not because XP is unrealiable, but because Windows is so vulnerable to viruses AND because it is so primitive internally.

Once you've used UNIX, you understand how an OS should be internally organized. So if you need to maintain an XP system you are confronted with a truly bizzare set of Wizards, Tools, Active X crap, and tons of DLLs -- not to mention they dreaded Registry. Look at all the tools sold to maintain a Windows system!

With OS X every aspect of the internals are logical. That's why MS can't make upgrades that work. Internally it's still in the DOS age.

So now we come to why I don't use EDIUS. The best hardware is made by Apple. The internals of OS X are based upon the best OS -- UNIX.

So it doesn't matter if I'm happy to USE XP. Frankly, I like USING XP!

Using is not maintaining. I've no choice but to run OS X. And, thus FCP and Avid MC. I think if you were to ask why post houses use Macs -- they would say the same thing. If you've got dozens of computers to maintain and upgrade you want Macs. Plus they want the cheapest, fastest hardware, with very high reliability.

But, we are way OT. Back to EDIUS. There is no real increase in seeable rez. in 1920x1080 verses 1440x1080. That's why one can use HDV.

But, with FullHD displays becoming the norm -- it makes sense, if one records FullHD, to stay FullHD through the editing process and to BD as it avoids scaling.

Which comes back to my question about RT. I've used Vegas and it is really performance limited. You've got to use minimum rez. in a tiny window to get smooth playback. Adding CC or any FX and it drops to only a few fps. So when these folks post they can PLAY native AVCHD in Vegas -- my question is what happens when you CC two clips and place a page-turn as a transition. They never say they can do this and have playback stay at 30fps. So, Vegas can't really edit native AVCHD in RT -- can it?

EDIUS -- and FCP -- have far more sophisticated internals. In fact, iMovie 08 is fully realtime. You never need to render anything!

So the question I keep wondering is -- does GV plan to make native AVCHD editing fully RT like HDV? Or, do they assume one must convert to HQ?

[Bob Diaz]

I've been looking over the messages for the last few days and decided to post some links regarding the Panasonic HMC-150 that I saw at NAB (with photos):

http://web.mac.com/bobdiaz/Site/HMC150.html


Also, I had a chance to interview Jan Crittenden (from Panasonic) as well as Berry Green regarding the HMC-150, the HPX-170 and the HVX-200a.

http://web.mac.com/bobdiaz/Site/Podc...Panasonic.html

http://web.mac.com/bobdiaz/Site/Podc...rry_Green.html


I'm pleased to read that Steve Mullen likes the HMC-150. (Great minds think alike... Ha ha) This camera has caught my eye too and I have big hopes that Panasonic will be able to keep the price in reason and still deliver a quality camera.


The word from NAB was October for the HMC-150 and September for the HPX-170.


Bob Diaz

[Tom Cadwalader]

I have been following this and several other threads. I am about to move to a HD camcorder. I have been looking at the Canon and Sony offerings as well as JVC recently. The editing has me concerned. Have have been using IMovie 06 and just read Steve Mullen's ebook on iMovie 08 and like the prospect of using it. I currently have an iMac and a MBP is coming soon. I also have a XP laptop. I was hoping to move to FCE , but that doesn't sound like a good option for a AVCHD camera.

While my editing is for family use and some no-profit stuff, I don't do anything real fancy, just basic trims, titles and the like. Editing with AVCHD has me concerned enough that I am considering going with a HV20 or HV30 instead of a camera with flash memory.

Why is it that I don't see a lot of interest in the JVC that records in MPEG 2 to a harddrive? It would seem as thought it would be the best of both worlds. What is that I am missing here?

I find this forum very helpful and look forward to more great post. I want to get a camera in the next few weeks before I start traveling. I need to decidewhich format and which camera real soon.

[Lorenzo Asso]

I ask ask you a favour guys, if you can, if you want, if you have time...
I've seen bob's link about hmc-150 and the two video; i've understood something but not all beacuse they speak too fast and there is too much noise in background and it results for my english too much difficult.
Someone could put in written words what they are saying in the two video? (it's enough a summary of course not exactly each word! :-) ). thanks in advance.

------------

I would like to post a couple of clip that i treated by avisynth chain, since i'm not kidding anyone, as Steve told me...

Here it is 2 clip i did by the "old" pana SD1...I deinterlaced by avisynth's yadifmode building a 50P clip. And after i load it in premiere CS3 using timewarp and time remapping.
(i did this experiment since in italy many people think that AVCHD panning is poor and shuttering. And that is impossible to get decent rallenty...I don't think so... off course i've not any claim but i think it is not a bad work, compared, off course between same camcorder class...)

here there is the timeremapping test:
http://www.savefiles.net/d/tdr4zx83ekyd3.html

and here there is the timewarp test:
http://rs86.rapidshare.com/files/109..._yadif_50F.mp4

it would be possible to do better job, but i am a dog to use premiere and its effects!! :-)


and here there is a little test from SR11 of my friend. I treated the video in avisynth, sharpening a little bit using a powerful sharpening function, called seesaw.

http://www.speedyshare.com/398541820.html

i used 12mbit in full resolution, that was exactly the amount of bitrate this particular clip needed, not too much bitrate not too little ( and this thanks to compressibility test i can do using another avisynth script..).

ciao!

[Bob Diaz]

Tom,

I've been looking into AVCHD also and I'm facing many of the same problems you see. To me the HMC-150 looks like my ideal camera, but the editing issue does raise its ugly head.

Editing native does require a much more powerful computer than what I have (iMac, dual core, 2.4 GHz). Yet, considering the cost of getting a computer that's powerful enough, it would be better to spend the extra money and get the HPX-170.

Using a digital intermediate like AIC (Apple Intermediate Codec) solves the processor power problem, but does add a generation to the process. However, the AIC is a high bit rate editing Codec, so the "loss" is very minor and may not matter much.

I've been toying a lot with FCE (Final Cut Express) to see how well it will work with HD. In one experiment, I took some footage from Philip Bloom that was 720/25P. According to FCE's documentation, this mode is not supported, but when I outputted the file in 1080 mode, it came out as 1080/25p. It may well be that there are modes to FCE that are supported, but not in the manual.


Bob Diaz

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Ken, you and I are in full agreement on EDIUS. I too think it is THE BEST NLE SOLD TODAY. It is fast, stable, and the GUI is wonderful. I too think FCP is a bad version of the new Premiere. Likewise, the new Premiere is a bad copy of FCP.

Interesting analogy Steve, I never thought of it that way. Maybe that explains it since I've always hated Premiere.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Where we part company is the platform. I too think the claims of XP crashing are totally untrue. But, when it comes to the hardware to run XP on -- I've had Dells and Sonys. They lasted about a year, had zero support, and lost value at an alarming rate. Nobody will buy a used PC and I need to upgrade every year. The opposite is true of Apple. Everyone wants to buy a used Mac.

Just heard this data today: Mac sales are growing at 50%/year while PC sales are growing at 8%/year. Now you may claim it's only kids buying Macs. But, anyone who uses a Mac knows there are no PCs you can buy that match them. Dell and Sony are junk. hp is better, but more expensive than Apple. Levovo is high-quality, but outrageously expensive.

Well the resale issue holds no water with me since I'd never think of reselling an old laptop. In actuality I never buy anything because of resale value, but that's me. I buy based soley on how the product appeals to me.

I can't agree with you at all on the Sony laptops but I do agree with you on the Dells. I've had Dell laptops for work and they are indeed garbage! I've had numerous issues with them. However I've always gotten Sony laptops for my son and they have been rock-solid. The kid abuses the hell out of his laptop, runs it 24/7 and the thing never ever gives up. In fact the only reason I got him the new T8300 2.4gig Vaio was because his battery was pretty much shot. Rather than spend $150 on a 3-year old Vaio laptop, I got him a new one. I'm extremely impressed with the new Vaio. The speed is tremendous and the Vista OS is a pleasant surprise. I've never had a computer where apps launch so quickly...almost instantly!

Again, I've played with Macs and have not been impressed with their speed. Even using something as simple as Word, both my wife and I noticed a significant lag when typing on the keyboard and finally seeing the results. The only thing I like about their laptops is the screen and they Vaio screen seems to be a match for them.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

But, leave aside marketing and sales. Since Macs are based on Intel -- and since Intel sells Apple the latest chips first, Macs tend to be faster than a PC. So, if you want EDIUS to really run fast, run it on a Mac. :)

However, once you use OS X you'll have a very hard time using XP. Not because XP is unrealiable, but because Windows is so vulnerable to viruses AND because it is so primitive internally..

The problem I have here Steve is that the computer I use for editing is never hooked up to the internet and I therefore have never ever gotten a virus on them. In fact, I've only gotten a virus once in all my years with PCs on my home computers. I think the whole issue of viruses is over-rated...at least on the sites I go on. I've also always used Norton and so that may be a factor too. But suffice is to say I don't think I've gotten a virus in 5 years.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Once you've used UNIX, you understand how an OS should be internally organized. So if you need to maintain an XP system you are confronted with a truly bizzare set of Wizards, Tools, Active X crap, and tons of DLLs -- not to mention they dreaded Registry. Look at all the tools sold to maintain a Windows system!

With OS X every aspect of the internals are logical. That's why MS can't make upgrades that work. Internally it's still in the DOS age..

That may be true Steve, but I've used Windows since the advent of the PC and for me it's like the back of my hand. Once you've become so accustomed to what Mac users may find weird, it's no longer weird. The Mac OS to me is weird because I'm not used to it. It may indeed be better, but I have no reason to switch since everything I run on XP is so rock solid...it truly is.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

So now we come to why I don't use EDIUS. The best hardware is made by Apple. The internals of OS X are based upon the best OS -- UNIX.

So it doesn't matter if I'm happy to USE XP. Frankly, I like USING XP!

Using is not maintaining. I've no choice but to run OS X. And, thus FCP and Avid MC. I think if you were to ask why post houses use Macs -- they would say the same thing. If you've got dozens of computers to maintain and upgrade you want Macs. Plus they want the cheapest, fastest hardware, with very high reliability..

Steve, the computer I've been using is made by Shuttle. These are beautifully made and designed PCs. They have a small form factor and have been rock solid. I use one for my editing and I have another as a family computer. Never had an issue with them. So I don't worry about the hardware, don't need to learn a new OS and have had great success using Edius. I would have a very very hard time dealing with FCP interface...I hate it. To be honest, even if I had a maintenance issue with hardware (which fortunately I don't), I would still put up with it to use Edius. I figure the time that Edius saves me and the pleasure I have using it, would more than make up for the maintenance issues. For me it's truly a win win.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

But, we are way OT. Back to EDIUS. There is no real increase in seeable rez. in 1920x1080 verses 1440x1080. That's why one can use HDV.

But, with FullHD displays becoming the norm -- it makes sense, if one records FullHD, to stay FullHD through the editing process and to BD as it avoids scaling.

Which comes back to my question about RT. I've used Vegas and it is really performance limited. You've got to use minimum rez. in a tiny window to get smooth playback. Adding CC or any FX and it drops to only a few fps. So when these folks post they can PLAY native AVCHD in Vegas -- my question is what happens when you CC two clips and place a page-turn as a transition. They never say they can do this and have playback stay at 30fps. So, Vegas can't really edit native AVCHD in RT -- can it?

EDIUS -- and FCP -- have far more sophisticated internals. In fact, iMovie 08 is fully realtime. You never need to render anything!

So the question I keep wondering is -- does GV plan to make native AVCHD editing fully RT like HDV? Or, do they assume one must convert to HQ?

I agree, why throw out the extra resolution when you have it...particularly in my case when I do have a 60" 1080p display.

I tried Vegas and really wasn't crazy about the interface. I think you're right about layers, CC and transitions. I don't believe Vegas can handle that in RT.

Knowing Edius, I'd truly be shocked if AVCHD wasn't real time. I think this is one of the reasons they may seem 'delayed' in introducing AVCHD total support to Edius.

[Steve Mullen]

Looks we agree more than we disagree. I had one very expensive Sony laptop -- preVAIO and is it was horrible. But, i bought one of the tiny tiny VAIO laptops for my wife used -- and I love it.

We also agree on speed. I have a big mother Dell, bought used after tons of repairs were made -- and it screams. My wife used it keeps comment on how slow her far new MacBook is. Of course, the MacBook weights half of what the Dell does. I hear that OS X 10.6 is, at last, going to focus on performance.

I posted at the EDIUS site. The answer I got was that no computer can edit AVCHD natively. Yes, Vegas can play a clip as can EDIUS at minimum resolution. But, I still think it can't do CC and FX in RT. And, we agree on the Vegas GUI. Seems like Premiere V2.

Maybe I'll look at a VAIO from Sony with BD burner.

PS: I came very close to buying a Shuttle!

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Tom Cadwalader

IWhy is it that I don't see a lot of interest in the JVC that records in MPEG 2 to a harddrive? It would seem as thought it would be the best of both worlds. What is that I am missing here?

I have the JVC HD7 and I LOVE it. I wrote a book on it. Same 960x540 chip system as the Pana 200, 60GB HD like SR11, Full Manual controls, and everything edits it like it were HDV.

So why look at AVCHD? Because right or wrong the market follows Sony, Panasonic, and Canon. Since it's time for a new book -- I really have no choice but to write about AVCHD even if it wouldn't be MY first choice.

Likewise, even if I come to love the Sony SR11/12 as the "best" -- I need to consider that Canon is selling a ton of camcorders. Someone loves them. And, if you want progressive it's the only way to go.

I need to consider the market more than I consider what I would buy. In fact, since companies these days don't give long loans -- I often need to sell what I have. So if you are interested in my HD7, email me off-line. I'm saving my pennies for the Pana HMC-150. I have a severe case of lust.

[Ken Ross]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Looks we agree more than we disagree. I had one very expensive Sony laptop -- preVAIO and is it was horrible. But, i bought one of the tiny tiny VAIO laptops for my wife used -- and I love it.

We also agree on speed. I have a big mother Dell, bought used after tons of repairs were made -- and it screams. My wife used it keeps comment on how slow her far new MacBook is. Of course, the MacBook weights half of what the Dell does. I hear that OS X 10.6 is, at last, going to focus on performance.

I posted at the EDIUS site. The answer I got was that no computer can edit AVCHD natively. Yes, Vegas can play a clip as can EDIUS at minimum resolution. But, I still think it can't do CC and FX in RT. And, we agree on the Vegas GUI. Seems like Premiere V2.

Maybe I'll look at a VAIO from Sony with BD burner.

PS: I came very close to buying a Shuttle!

Yeah, I've seen those really tiny Vaios...super nice! I just saw one on the plane last night as I was returning from Atlanta. Of course the give back is that small screen.

Per Edius, keep in mind that you can import and edit AVCHD natively, but with a hit to performance. I saw your post on the Edius board. I'm sure they'll have the total AVCHD solution with 5.0 and I'd be surprised if it's not real time in keeping with their tradition.

I also saw how people have said that transcoding AVCHD to the Canopus HQ codec (which is indeed excellent and visually transparent for HDV) resulted in no drop in picture quality. I'm not sure what screen they were viewing it on and I asked that question. It's hard to believe that there would be a zero drop in quality in going from 1920X1080 to 1440X1080. Granted that 1920X1080 AVCHD does not have much more detail than the best 1440X1080, but I'd still like to see what screen these people are using to make these assessments.

Yes Steve, we agree more than we disagree here.

[David Kennett]

I think many of the "pros" are missing the point of AVCHD. While full editing of AVCHD has a tough time getting up up speed, simple cuts-only editing (what consumers want) is a thing of beauty.

I have the Pany SD5 with the bundled DVD burner, and this offers possibilities NEVER available with tape. Here's what I can do if I don't even OWN a computer. Delete and split shots in the camera, then copy these to a standard DVD (even dual layer). I can then play the DVD through the camera's HDMI or component outputs in HD, or I can play it in a Blu-ray player.

If you have a computer, you have a few more options using the included HDWRITER software. You must use ONLY this software, but within its limited capabilities it works very well. You can copy memory card or DVD to a hard drive, then do cuts-only editing and burn a DVD (in HD) and create basic menus for a Blu-ray player. That disc can also play through the camera in HD using the bundled burner. You can also copy that edited DVD back to an SD card, and play that in the camera. A couple Pany HDTVs have a card slot that will play AVCHD as well.

HDWRITER ran fine on a 3GHz P4, while Pinnacle Studio plus stuttered and crashed. A quad core 3GHz did much better. AVCHD is not just a file format, but a complete folder structure. In fact, the "edited" material is simply a playlist of the original shots. I thought the Pany combination was simplicity itself, and just what consumers need.

[Ron Evans]

David, the Sony's are very similar. The included software is good enough for most consumers. The cameras can do cuts type editing in camera, create many playlists etc something impossible with tape. I think understanding playlists will be important for these type of cameras. One could copy and create a totally different set for different situations without changing anything of the original especially on one with a really big hard drive like the SR12

Ron Evans

[Ervin Farkas]

Originally Posted by David Kennett

I think many of the "pros" are missing the point of AVCHD. While full editing of AVCHD has a tough time getting up up speed, simple cuts-only editing (what consumers want) is a thing of beauty.

Real video professionals understand what AVCHD is, real consumers don't care what editing is. The problem segment is those that you adequately call self-proclaimed "pros".

From it's inception, AVCHD was intended to be a CONSUMER HD format, not meant to be edited beyond straight cuts. H.264 is a wonderful DELIVERY format, NOT an AQUISITION format. It is highly compressed, computers will always have a tough time editing it unless you transcode it to something all I-frame. Yes, with time NLE support will improve, but we will have to live with the format's inherent limitations.

It was, it is, and it will always be a CONSUMER video format.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Ervin Farkas

It was, it is, and it will always be a CONSUMER video format.

That's just exactly what was claimed by many about HDV, and also DV back in the day.

And such claims have *never* stopped professionals from using the format as they see fit, nor have those claims stopped manufacturers from producing pro-level cameras that use those formats. Just a few cases in point: for HDV, the entire JVC ProHD line, Sony's HVR-S720; for DV (not DVCAM or DVCPRO, just DV), Panasonic's AG-DVC200 and JVC's GY-DV500 and DV5000. And now for AVCHD, Panasonic's AVCCAM lineup plus whatever Sony and Canon will soon be offering to compete.

In other words, the recording format isn't "consumer" or "professional." Some cameras can be designated as such by their particular feature sets, but there's only one thing that truly delineates "consumer" from "professional," and that's the camera operator.

Consumer vs. Professional is nothing more or less than a human equation.

[Ken Ross]

Amen to Chris' words! Couldn't have said it better. ;)

[Ervin Farkas]

I guess I offered the "cup half empty" perspective, while Chris highlighted the "cup half full" version.

Bottom line is: those venturing into this uncharted teritory don't have a path yet, let alone a road map (workflow) like we have with older formats. They are making the path, writing up the map... and a walk in the jungle comes with hurdles and nightmares, to go back to the original poster's title.