I was all set to buy the HV30, but now....

Hans Ledel · March 21st, 2008, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rosky

Boy, I'm starting to feel bummed that I can't really consider the SR11 because of the hard drive issues (altitude). I wish I could afford two cams at once, like the SD9 for climbing/skiing and the SR11 for everything else ;)

Hopefully the mythical CX9 will basically be an SR11 without the hard drive.

BTW, Ken, do you miss not having any progressive recording modes on the SR12? I guess the low light performance is good enough without needing 24P, and you can always get 30P by deinterlacing in post...

Since the SR 11/12 records to both HD and card, is it not possible to record to the card only when altitude might be an issue?

Ken Ross · March 21st, 2008, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Rosky

BTW, Ken, do you miss not having any progressive recording modes on the SR12? I guess the low light performance is good enough without needing 24P, and you can always get 30P by deinterlacing in post...

Dave, to be honest no. I was never a fan of 24p and its inherent stutter and the only reason I ever used it (and it was VERY seldom at that) was low light. So I really don't miss it at all. I do think the low light performance of the SR12 is good relative to any of these consumer cams. I'm not saying it's anywhere near that of a VX2100, but in terms of HD it's fine.

But to put things in perspective on 24p for me, I'm really a 'video' guy and I mean in that in the sense that I love the video 'look'...the 'you are there look' that 60i, non progressive video gives. I'm not a fan of the simulated film look that video cams try to achieve (and don't IMO). Any mode that puts me further away from that 'you are there' look is generally not one I like. I know some people love it, but that's why we have choices.

I guess you could say if I loved the film look I'd shoot with film. ;)

Ken Ross · March 21st, 2008, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans Ledel

Since the SR 11/12 records to both HD and card, is it not possible to record to the card only when altitude might be an issue?

Yes it is Hans, but there is the issue as to whether the HD is spinning or parked even when recording to the card. We haven't really heard anything definitive on that. I know when I'm recording to a card, I can still hear something going on with the HD. It's not the very low clicking sound I can hear when recording to the HD, but you do hear something.

Fortunately I never hear anything in the recording and it's surely nothing like tape transport noise.

Dave Rosky · March 21st, 2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

But to put things in perspective on 24p for me, I'm really a 'video' guy and I mean in that in the sense that I love the video 'look'...the 'you are there look' that 60i, non progressive video gives. I'm not a fan of the simulated film look that video cams try to achieve (and don't IMO). Any mode that puts me further away from that 'you are there' look is generally not one I like. I know some people love it, but that's why we have choices.

I guess you could say if I loved the film look I'd shoot with film. ;)

I'm largely the same way. Faster frame rates reproduce motion more faithfully than lower frame rates, yet people want the juttery look of 90 year old film technology.

It reminds me of the period of the time when people wanted their solid state amplifiers to sound like tube amps, or when many folks complained that CD's sounded "too clean" compared to vinyl. I guess a lot of people get used to the characteristics of old technology and have a hard time giving up that feel even though newer technology is actually truer-to-life.

Having said that, if I end up getting an SD9, I'm sure I'll want to use every trick, including 24P, in those rare low light situations ;-)

Paul Fort · March 21st, 2008, 12:03 PM

I just finished updating my vista with the VIsta SP1
It is supposed to fixe some issues and make the OS run more efficiently

I also followed a couple of tips from this site on reducing the vista CPU usage.

http://www.techradar.com/news/softwa...s-vista-244684

I removed the AERO color (indicated as on of the tips)

the look is a little old school windows but I set the look for performance not appearence.

Im rendering an audio test now and it is running faster ;)

Dave Blackhurst · March 21st, 2008, 12:14 PM

He he, that reminds me of the "CD transition" - lots of analog masters were just dumped direct to CD without remastering... someone forgot that the engineers typically had to "tweak" the EQ curve for tape or vinyl to compensate for the frequency dropoff - thus highs now were harsh, etc.

With every new technology, there are adherents to the "old", because it's "better". "Better" meaning what you are used to and comfortable with, and the "new" is sometimes still on a road "under construction"...

I myself think that CC (color correction) or the way one posts the footage, whatever media it originated in does far more to create the illusion. Yes, cadence makes a difference, I render out to 24P in Vegas, and people say it looks less like video to them, so I guess it's working... but everything I've seen leads me to be more interested in capturing the original event as clean and accurate as possible, then getting creative in post to get the "look" I'm after.

60P would probably be the "ideal" (presuming my new 4D holocam isn't ready for prime time), but 60i will have to do... if that's what I've got available, good enough.

And about the exposure, yep, I find reigning the cam in a bit from it's "automatic" exposure settings is almost always a way to get better looking video. I usually either set AE between 2-4 clicks to the left (darker), and or have a control dial/wheel set to adjust that or exposure on the fly.

Dave Rosky · March 21st, 2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

lots of analog masters were just dumped direct to CD without remastering... someone forgot that the engineers typically had to "tweak" the EQ curve for tape or vinyl to compensate for the frequency dropoff - thus highs now were harsh, etc.

Ha! If you took a master with an RIAA 33-1/3 recording curve applied to it and wrote that to a CD, boy would you be in for a rude awakening! Thankfully, I must have never got any of those disks.

Even with good equalization, there were a lot of people (audiophiles included) who, for a number of years, would complain that CD's were "too clean" or "too crisp" for their tastes.

In audio the complaints eventually died away, but in video, the issue will probably persist because the film and TV industry is perpetuating the use of 24 fps.

John Minor · March 21st, 2008, 01:22 PM

Now it looks like a race between the HV30 & SR11. From this discussion it seems the image quality is pretty much a draw, and thats the most important factor. Sounds like the SR11 has the edge in audio quality, but if I want great audio I know I will have to use external mic's. Now I have to determine if my computer can handle editing AVCHD, and if I want to go the tape route or external HD to archive my video. Thanks for the great conversation, I will let you know what I decide on and will download video as soon as I can.

John

John Minor · March 21st, 2008, 01:47 PM

Can you do an in camera transfer of video from the SR11's hd, to a memory stick?

Dave Blackhurst · March 21st, 2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Minor

Can you do an in camera transfer of video from the SR11's hd, to a memory stick?

Yes - you might want to download the manual from Sony.com to get to know the camera better - I'd imagine the HV30 manual is around somewhere on Canon's site too.

The SR11 has 5.1 surround vs. stereo of HDV/HV30. Don't know if the HV30 improves upon the HV20, but if not, yes add external mics.

I'm fairly impressed with the 5.1 setup on my CX7, FWIW, and with the HW1 added, it's a pretty versatile little rig. Looking forward to the bigger screen of the SR11 myself, that would be a big factor.

Kaushik Parmar · March 24th, 2008, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

Kaushik, for me to switch to the HF10, it would have to demonstrate visibly superior picture quality. From the clips I've downloaded, it doesn't. I also have to factor in the loss of a viewfinder, 5.1 surround sound, larger LCD, much larger internal storage space and what is to my eyes the lowest noise levels I've encoutered with a consumer HD cam in the SR12.

I've uploaded SR12 videos that you can download here. This is a far better way to see the quality than the highly compressed Vimeo website. Frankly I can't tell the quality of anything on that site due to the compression:

Sunny day shot:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GOHXJM70

Here's an early morning, hazy day shot in N.Y.C.:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=00JC43E9

Ken Rose,

I was exited to see your posted video, I downloaded but failed to run on any Media Player, I have PowerDVD Ultra also but now able to see it! I have installed VLC Player on my laptop but was not able to see it!

I would appreciate if you can upload MPEG file of same videos!

Thanks,
Kaushik

John Minor · March 24th, 2008, 02:56 PM

After further review: It's now a 2 horse race between the Canon HF10, and Sony SR11. Just a bit more research to do before the final decision. The reason the HV30 is gone, since I'm starting fresh figured to go ahead with the AVCHD format since it is the future..... I'm leaning toward the HF10 as it doesn't have a HDD, and it has more manual control........ I will let you know the final decision.

Ken Ross · March 24th, 2008, 06:40 PM

John, I'm sure you can't go wrong with either one.

Dave Blackhurst · March 24th, 2008, 07:00 PM

There's a pretty good chance that Sony will make some announcement of a CX7 replacement, though it might not be out for a while. If the "CX9" was an SR11 without the HDD, maybe a bit smaller and lighter (VF optional but would be nice), I'd be mighty happy. The SR11 with the bigger screen and the control knob have me itching to try, but the CX7 and a just added HC9 (so I can access older tapes...) are working well for me...

It's very likely that whatever replaces the CX7 will share lens/sensor/bionz/EXMOR/etc. with the SR cams, which should make it a very serious competitor to the Canons. I'd also not be surprised to see some internal flash or at least a version with the option.

And while I favor Sony because all my accessories are already in place, the new Canons certainly are keeping the competition strong! Choose either, and you're a winner most likely!

Paulo Teixeira · March 24th, 2008, 07:20 PM

Kaushik Parmar,

Try playing the files on Windows media 11 first and if that doesn’t work you could purchase Nero 8 but if you want a cheaper alternative, you should get this:
http://www.coreavc.com/index.php?opt...d=21&Itemid=59. The $14.95 version is recommended because it takes advantages of multi-core processors.

If you still have problems then the only other options are either upgrading your computer, buying a new one or get a Sony PS3.

March 21st, 2008, 12:03 PM	#35
Paul Fort Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Perkasie, Pennsylvania Posts: 35	Windows vista Service Pack 1 (SP1) I just finished updating my vista with the VIsta SP1 It is supposed to fixe some issues and make the OS run more efficiently I also followed a couple of tips from this site on reducing the vista CPU usage. http://www.techradar.com/news/softwa...s-vista-244684 I removed the AERO color (indicated as on of the tips) the look is a little old school windows but I set the look for performance not appearence. Im rendering an audio test now and it is running faster ;)

March 24th, 2008, 07:20 PM	#45
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	Kaushik Parmar, Try playing the files on Windows media 11 first and if that doesn’t work you could purchase Nero 8 but if you want a cheaper alternative, you should get this: http://www.coreavc.com/index.php?opt...d=21&Itemid=59. The $14.95 version is recommended because it takes advantages of multi-core processors. If you still have problems then the only other options are either upgrading your computer, buying a new one or get a Sony PS3. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

March 21st, 2008, 12:14 PM	#36
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	He he, that reminds me of the "CD transition" - lots of analog masters were just dumped direct to CD without remastering... someone forgot that the engineers typically had to "tweak" the EQ curve for tape or vinyl to compensate for the frequency dropoff - thus highs now were harsh, etc. With every new technology, there are adherents to the "old", because it's "better". "Better" meaning what you are used to and comfortable with, and the "new" is sometimes still on a road "under construction"... I myself think that CC (color correction) or the way one posts the footage, whatever media it originated in does far more to create the illusion. Yes, cadence makes a difference, I render out to 24P in Vegas, and people say it looks less like video to them, so I guess it's working... but everything I've seen leads me to be more interested in capturing the original event as clean and accurate as possible, then getting creative in post to get the "look" I'm after. 60P would probably be the "ideal" (presuming my new 4D holocam isn't ready for prime time), but 60i will have to do... if that's what I've got available, good enough. And about the exposure, yep, I find reigning the cam in a bit from it's "automatic" exposure settings is almost always a way to get better looking video. I usually either set AE between 2-4 clicks to the left (darker), and or have a control dial/wheel set to adjust that or exposure on the fly.

March 21st, 2008, 01:22 PM	#38
John Minor New Boot Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Superior, Wisconsin Posts: 15	Now it looks like a race between the HV30 & SR11. From this discussion it seems the image quality is pretty much a draw, and thats the most important factor. Sounds like the SR11 has the edge in audio quality, but if I want great audio I know I will have to use external mic's. Now I have to determine if my computer can handle editing AVCHD, and if I want to go the tape route or external HD to archive my video. Thanks for the great conversation, I will let you know what I decide on and will download video as soon as I can. John

March 21st, 2008, 01:47 PM	#39
John Minor New Boot Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Superior, Wisconsin Posts: 15	Can you do an in camera transfer of video from the SR11's hd, to a memory stick?

March 24th, 2008, 02:56 PM	#42
John Minor New Boot Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Superior, Wisconsin Posts: 15	After further review: It's now a 2 horse race between the Canon HF10, and Sony SR11. Just a bit more research to do before the final decision. The reason the HV30 is gone, since I'm starting fresh figured to go ahead with the AVCHD format since it is the future..... I'm leaning toward the HF10 as it doesn't have a HDD, and it has more manual control........ I will let you know the final decision.

March 24th, 2008, 06:40 PM	#43
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	John, I'm sure you can't go wrong with either one.

March 24th, 2008, 07:00 PM	#44
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	There's a pretty good chance that Sony will make some announcement of a CX7 replacement, though it might not be out for a while. If the "CX9" was an SR11 without the HDD, maybe a bit smaller and lighter (VF optional but would be nice), I'd be mighty happy. The SR11 with the bigger screen and the control knob have me itching to try, but the CX7 and a just added HC9 (so I can access older tapes...) are working well for me... It's very likely that whatever replaces the CX7 will share lens/sensor/bionz/EXMOR/etc. with the SR cams, which should make it a very serious competitor to the Canons. I'd also not be surprised to see some internal flash or at least a version with the option. And while I favor Sony because all my accessories are already in place, the new Canons certainly are keeping the competition strong! Choose either, and you're a winner most likely!