720 60P small camera ... ???

[John Godden]

Second attempt at requesting rumors/info on any upcoming 720 60P cameras.

I'm hoping for a smaller HVX200 type camera sometime in 07. I can wait till early 08 but if nothing shows up by then ........... ??? .......... may have to go HVX.

Thanks
JohnG

[Wayne Morellini]

I second that. Samsung had an 720p60 camera that was delayed and disappeared, SC-HX15, or something like that. I would expect more to come in the coming year, from low end Asian manufacturers even. Would probably be great for sports compared to data hogging 1080i.

[Solomon Chase]

Originally Posted by John Godden

Second attempt at requesting rumors/info on any upcoming 720 60P cameras.

I'm hoping for a smaller HVX200 type camera sometime in 07. I can wait till early 08 but if nothing shows up by then ........... ??? .......... may have to go HVX.

Thanks
JohnG

Your HV20 Can do 720P. Shoot 1080i, convert to 60p, then downsample to 720p. The result will be very sharp, with only a 20% hit in vertical resolution.

As for new cameras, there is a possibility of a DVX100 successor at NAB, most likely AVC codec. No info on anything though..

[John Godden]

Originally Posted by Solomon Chase

Your HV20 Can do 720P. Shoot 1080i, convert to 60p, then downsample to 720p. The result will be very sharp, with only a 20% hit in vertical resolution.

As for new cameras, there is a possibility of a DVX100 successor at NAB, most likely AVC codec. No info on anything though..

I'm looking for 60P. The HVX is the cheapest 60P camera right now. I've been thinking HVX ................ but I'm hoping a new camera will show up that is physically much smaller.

JohnG

[Geoffrey Robson]

I'm waiting for the same thing John. I'm sure a lot of us are.

That said, the HV20 does seem to produce very nice video, and Graeme Nattress' FCP plugin (demo version is a free download) does a very good job of converting 1080i60 to 720p60. It's annoying that this extra transcoding step would be needed, but given the low cost of the HV20, it may be worthwhile.

[John Godden]

Originally Posted by Geoffrey Robson

I'm waiting for the same thing John. I'm sure a lot of us are.

That said, the HV20 does seem to produce very nice video, and Graeme Nattress' FCP plugin (demo version is a free download) does a very good job of converting 1080i60 to 720p60. It's annoying that this extra transcoding step would be needed, but given the low cost of the HV20, it may be worthwhile.

I picked up an HV20. VERY nice video as long as the camera isn't moving. So far, I can't get decent video out of it when the camera isn't locked down. :-(

I want my 60P
JohnG

[Geoffrey Robson]

I went ahead and bought the HV20, and have now had it for a couple of days. I'm very pleased with the results, although I expect to shoot mainly 1080p. I guess I'll shoot 1080i only when I really need the reality look, and then I'll convert that to 720p.

I'll probably outgrow the camera in a couple of years (and no doubt be fed up with tape!). Hopefully by then AVCHD will have matured, and flash-based HD cameras with multiple formats (including 720p50/60!) will be available.

[Xavier Etown]

I'd like to know if all is equal between comparably priced cameras, would native 720p60 video look better than 1080i60 converted to 720p60?

Can the naked eye spot a difference? how would the hvx200 720p60 image compare to a Z1 image going from 1080i to 720p60?

[Geoffrey Robson]

Originally Posted by Xavier Etown

I'd like to know if all is equal between comparably priced cameras, would native 720p60 video look better than 1080i60 converted to 720p60? Can the naked eye spot a difference? how would the hvx200 720p60 image compare to a Z1 image going from 1080i to 720p60?

The difference would probably be apparent on some scenes, but not others. The perceived vertical resolution of interlaced material, which must effectively be put through a low-pass filter to remove interlace artefacts, is reduced by a factor of between 0.6 and 0.7 for general programming [1]. This means 1080i has an equivalent progressive resolution of between about 650p and 750p. Bear in mind that this factor was probably derived by comparing uncompressed interlaced and progressive material. This favours the former, since progressive holds up much better under compression [2]. Whether HDV compression is high enough for this to make much of a difference, I don't know.

My personal view is that 720p is the better format because it'll give predictable, consistently good results, irrespective of what it is you're shooting. If I were you, I'd go with the HVX200.

[1] http://www.ebu.ch/trev_300-wood.pdf
[2] http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_308-hdtv.pdf

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Xavier Etown

I'd like to know if all is equal between comparably priced cameras, would native 720p60 video look better than 1080i60 converted to 720p60?

Can the naked eye spot a difference? how would the hvx200 720p60 image compare to a Z1 image going from 1080i to 720p60?

Another spin on this is that 720p50 HDTV is said to be better than 1080i TV, because it compresses better that is why Europe had been looking at 720p50 for sports. Also, as HDTV's over in America are supposed to support 25/50p, 60p would only be necessary for shooting for TV use, over the less compressed 50p.

Something I read ages ago is an report on comments by the leading expert of De-interlace expert, that it just doesn't work (I think he was retiring). I was thinking of posting it, but didn't get around to reading ii. But from the sample photos, I think one of the points was that objects moving at different speeds produce different extension of interlace error in the same picture, making it impractical to effectively de-interlace on all scenes (however, given enough computing power and good enough algorithm I think that it still could most of the time).

On certain types of interlace, I think it should be possible to de-interlace up to full resolution, except for vertically moving features.

[John Godden]

Any 'news' on the 60P front?

I'm trying to arrange for a HVX rental, but it would sure be GREAT if one of the biggies would bring a small format 60P camera to market.

JohnG

[Wayne Morellini]

Keep an eye out for the New Sony XDCAM HD, Samsung should be getting closer with cameras, we hope, at least, better than that pocket one they announced a few years ago (doesn't that just stick, somebody announces what we should already have (in mpeg2/Mpeg) takes an while because of H264, then is scrapped and we wait another year+) new Panasonic's is another one.

It is amazing the industry is running to 1080i as if it is the ONLY HD, yet it hardly exists outside HD disk sales, so many transmissions in 1440*1080i incompatible 1080 screen, yet most screens are 720p like which is still the best quality. If they want 1080p, let them go to h264 dual channel broadcasts to get the bandwidth for 60p and quality 30p. The US has too many TV channels. I wish they had done something more compatible with present systems, like 720*405 16:9 SD, and 1440*810p HD (proper screen width interpolation), or 854*480, and 1708*960 (proper full screen high interpolation). They could have even done an 3:2 screen format.

[Joey Atilano]

Dumb question , what would you use 60P for? Is it for slow motion ?

[John Godden]

Originally Posted by Joey Atilano

Dumb question , what would you use 60P for? Is it for slow motion ?

Slow-mo AND better captures of action sequences. The other big-big difference is the codec. :-)

FWIW, I sold my Canon HV20. Nice little camera with very good captures of static scenes.

Regards
JohnG

[John Godden]

http://world.casio.com/ngdc/en/features3.html

Looks like sometime in 08 we'll get to see this pup.

60FPS and 300 FPS! woot-woot-woot!!!

JohnG