SONY's answer to the GH5?

[Jim Feeley]

All I know is that many, and perhaps most, of my production work for clients these days includes/requires some slow motion footage. So I'm unlikely to buy a new camera that doesn't offer at least good 60P UHD.

My main hope for NAB: That whatever I see will be available for purchase soon after NAB.

I know... I know...

Jim

[Mark Rosenzweig]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

You guess? How can I prove you wrong if you don't even know yourself? I was reacting to your claim that "Most professional videographers do not shoot at 60p" which is ofcourse just like your other statements a guess because you don't know, there is a reason why Sony includes more codec options, bitrates and frame rates in their higher end camera's because they are used by professionals who have specific needs, so that they can deliver in those formats if that's a client request or if they need it themselves for whatever reason.

You are a professional. Do you shoot 4K 60p? As you say it is available in some higher end cameras. If you don't, then you are telling us you do not value that feature very much either. I am not sure what we are disputing. You have not even said you disagree with my guesses about demand for uhd 60p or about what most professionals value, and we do not disagree that uhd 60p is useful.

[Noa Put]

If you don't, then you are telling us you do not value that feature very much either.

Oh, now you also seem to know what I value, or is that another guess? :) I already told you but will repeat again, first of all you didn't mention 60p being used in 4K, you just mentioned "Most professional videographers do not shoot at 60p" to which I reacted, I live in pal country so I shoot 50p all the time and when I get the gh5 I will shoot 4k 50p if needed and otherwise 1080p 50p, I only shoot 25p if I need 4K and if my camera doesn't support 50p.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Cliff not another GH5 fan boy thread.

Manufacturers often don't directly compete against each other they settle into a particular niche. Why does Sony need to respond to Panny GH5? A7 and GH are entirely different cameras. Pick a system that fits your needs and move on.

Mark I'll bite so pros in broadcast cinema don't use 60p (if that is even true) last time I checked they don't film with prosumer mirrorless cameras. It would then follow feature sets offered would differ. I can only know what I want so who cares about what the "pros" want.

[Cliff Totten]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

Cliff not another GH5 fan boy thread.

Manufacturers often don't directly compete against each other they settle into a particular niche. Why does Sony need to respond to Panny GH5? A7 and GH are entirely different cameras. Pick a system that fits your needs and move on.

Mark I'll bite so pros in broadcast cinema don't use 60p (if that is even true) last time I checked they don't film with prosumer mirrorless cameras. It would then follow feature sets offered would differ. I can only know what I want so who cares about what the "pros" want.

@ Noah,...I'm not sure what you mean. Are you trying to say that we all choose a sensor size and we keep all of our spending money in that world? I can tell you that I have a Sony FF A7S-II, APS-C A6300 and I sold my FS5 and just bought my first Micro Four Thirds camera....the GH5.

I have three other Sony friends that also planning to spend their money on a new GH5. Panasonic is giving 10bit color for $2000. Will Sony do that? If not, I dont think people will say "Oh jeesh...I have to stay with Sony 8bit 4k 30p because I am a die hard Super35 shooter....no matter what"

I'm sure you will see allot of Sony guys run to micro four thirds to get 4k, 10bit and 60p

I don't think the market is not loyal to "sensor size" in that way. I think we tend to go to where the features we care about are first. Sensor size is only one feature on a list of a dozen.

So yes,...I strongly believe that the GH5 absolutely "does" compete with Sony models for that limited pie of consumer $$$ I'm literally a perfect example. I'm a die hard Sony adict and I just did it myself!

CT

[Pete Cofrancesco]

The A7 will always have shallower dof, wider angle of view, and greater light sensitivity than the GH. If those factors are important then there is no reason to change. If the intrinsic MFT advantages of weight, cost, and other features are more important then the GH series will always win.

Each camera is built around the sensor so a GH can't be an A7 or vise versa. I could care less what my Sony or Panny friends do with their money.

[Cliff Totten]

You dont care. But Sony and Panny cares....and so does Canon, JVC and BlackMagic. They ALL want our limited money.

Im only asking; "What is Sony going to offer me to persuade me to return my new GH5 and buy another Sony with that money."

Pretty simple. I think Sony will bend on 10bit because of the GH5.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

@ Noah,...I'm not sure what you mean.

I"m sure you meant @ Pete because you quoted him :) I"m surprised to see how many Canon and Sony owners are getting the GH5, I"m sure it's not for the sensor size but mainly for the codec. Sony will always have their full frame sensor and good low light performance and that will remain a reason why people will continue to buy that camera, the GH5 get's bought to fill a gap Sony has left open so far in their lower priced camera's. That's why I think Sony will not be in a hurry to add any better codecs in anything below the FS7 just like Canon does with the c100II, that camera also doesn't need 4K to keep selling well and they probably also buy b-camera's like the a7sII and the gh5.

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

You dont care. But Sony and Panny cares....and so does Canon, JVC and BlackMagic. They ALL want our limited money.

Im only asking; "What is Sony going to offer me to persuade me to return my new GH5 and buy another Sony with that money."

Pretty simple. I think Sony will bend on 10bit because of the GH5.

As I said before I want only UHD 60P and I do not think Sony will do that because of the reasons you mentioned. FS7 is the first in their lineup to offer that other than what I already have the FDR-AX1. If you want 10 bit, the PXW-Z100, but both have small sensors ( likely the same sensor in my point and shoot HV30 ) and not good in low light. Also with the addition of the Ninja Inferno at about $1000 the GH5 will get you 10 bit in ProRes for all its frame rates. Still a fraction of the cost of a similarly equipped FS7 and a nice HDR 7" monitor . Be interesting to see what Sony do next or if they prefer to make money off their sensors.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

As far as I'm concerned the A7 codec is minor compared to the other issues, many of them I can't see them fixing.
1. Over heating. I can't have a camera shut down in the middle of shooting.
2. Limitation on continuously filming.
3. Weather sealing, overall durability and longevity.
4. Battery life.
5. Size, weight and cost of the lenses.

[Cliff Totten]

Yeah, the GH5 doesn't overheat or have a 29 minute time limit.

I think it's now time for Sony to put an end to this overheat problem. Even it it means putting a small cooling fan in their bodies. If the next A7/A9 series are slightly larger becasue they have cooling fans. I will gladly accept that if it cae shoot 4k for 3 hours straight with no trouble.

The "DSLR" industry is making a radical shift again. The GH5 is smashing all the marketing crippling tricks that companies used to use to protect video cameras. If Sony doesnt play ball with the GH5 than allot of video guys will leave Sony and go to the GH5.

I'm pretty sure that APS-C and full frame sensor size locked down to 8bit color and low CODEC bit rates will incise video shooter to stay with Sony.

Lemme tell ya....ALLOT of Sony guys will get REALLY jealous when we see the GH5 crowd shooting 10bit 4k at 60p with a full size HDMI port and an internal 400Mbp/s CODEC to dual SD cards on a camera that doesn't overheat and no time limit. It's hard to believe that I typed that all in one sentence!!

Sony had better play ball.

[Mark Rosenzweig]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Yeah, the GH5 doesn't overheat or have a 29 minute time limit.

I'm pretty sure that APS-C and full frame sensor size locked down to 8bit color and low CODEC bit rates will incise video shooter to stay with Sony.

Lemme tell ya....ALLOT of Sony guys will get REALLY jealous when we see the GH5 crowd shooting 10bit 4k at 60p with a full size HDMI port and an internal 400Mbp/s CODEC to dual SD cards on a camera that doesn't overheat and no time limit. It's hard to believe that I typed that all in one sentence!!

Sony had better play ball.

I think you do not understand what is going on with bitrates. This is my understanding (check if I am wrong): the GH5 right now can shoot at "only" 150 Mbps for UHD 60p. That's twice the frame rate but at only 50% over the bitrate compared with UHD 30p. The Sony A7's shoot UHD 30p at 100 Mbps, same as the GH5. The 400 Mbps bitrate is not available now on the GH5 (a promised firmware update), and when it will be available it will be intra, which has far less compression than long GOP so you cannot compare that bitrate to a long GOP one (which is 150 or 100 Mbps). Who knows with light compression whether 400 Mbps is enough. In any case, the bitrates on the GH5 for the new stuff if anything may be too low.

[Ron Evans]

Only had a day to look at my GH5, I intend running mine ( to replace my FDR-AX1 Sony camcorder ) on an Atomos Power Station. Just done a quick test , I let it run for 3 hours and used 1/2 of one of the two batteries in the Power Station. No over heating running at UHD 60P. Doing the test with the internal battery and it lasted about 45 mins before shutting down. Internal battery not useful for my application in the theatre needing at least 90 mins run time so glad I got the Atomos Power Station. Will take me a little time to get used to the different controls to a video camera but most are there in the way I can see. Only thing I wish for at the moment is to see what the camera is using if a parameter is in auto, in particular I will use auto ISO in my application and would like to know what it is setting. I like the way my Sony's show all parameters with (A) next to them if it is in auto. There is about a 7 frame delay in the audio compared to video at the start of the clip. With Custom AF turned off but Continuous AF on it focuses much like my video cameras just about 1 sec slower than the FDR-AX1 when in UHD 60P as far as I can tell from when the peaking indicators lock on. Moving from a subject 18" away to 15 feet away takes about 5 sec to lock compared to just about 4 sec for the FDR-AX1.

As far as bit rates go my FDR-AX1 is also 150Mbps for UHD60P. You cannot just double when you go to 60 from 30 as they are Long GOP codecs and only record the differences. There will be much more movement between frames for a 30P video than a 60P video so the 30P video may need a lot more data to record the difference to the last frame than for 60P. Will totally depend on the subject of course but if there is a lot of movement there will be more issues with the 30P file. If there is little movement then it doesn't matter. If one is concerned about bit rates etc then buy a Inferno and record ProRes or DNxXX and get a nice 7" HDR monitor as well.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

If Sony doesnt play ball with the GH5 than allot of video guys will leave Sony and go to the GH5.

I don't believe that many sony users will give up a full frame look in favor of a m4/3 sensor look, from what I can see is that the GH5 mainly gets bought as a addition to the camera they are already using. Sony has not much to fear from Panasonic, if there is one trend I am seeing is that Canon 5d mark 3 owners and particularly weddingvideographers are switching to a Sony A7SII.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

Doing the test with the internal battery and it lasted about 45 mins before shutting down.

I have read the battery runs much longer if you turn off sensor stabilization, when you are on a tripod that needs to be turned of anyway.