Rumors of a 4K Sony RX20 at DVinfo.net

Glen Vandermolen · September 27th, 2014, 03:39 AM

There's rumors going around about a 4K RX20 to be released in October, '14.
I'm not surprised if this is true. Panasonic already has the 4K FZ1000. Why wouldn't Sony make the RX10 as a 4K camera?

James Manford · September 27th, 2014, 03:53 AM

Makes sense for Sony to try and match Panasonics offerings.

I purchased the FZ1000 two days ago as my fingers where itching on ebay and I absolutely regret it.

4K raw files lag on my PC when i'm already adding to multi-camera streams in Sony Vegas. The FZ1000's menu system is unfamiliar (considering I use ONLY SONY cameras) and not as quick to set up as my PJ780VE camcorder, which means I will miss essential shots in the field when im working.

Batteries run out too quickly. I have to purchase MANY replacement batteries. It is a nightmare to change the battery / memory card with a quick release plate on, so I have to always remove the release plate. Oh did I mention the amount of memory 4K takes up? and the 29min limit. No good for using during ceremonies then.

My FZ1000 is being returned back to the seller. I can't upgrade to 4K for many years as when I do, I need to buy more storage (hard drives and 128gb memory cards) and a better PC. Too much to invest in at the moment considering I just purchased a FS700 this year.

Dave Blackhurst · September 29th, 2014, 04:59 PM

Since Sony released the 2.0 firmware for the RX10, IMO there is probably NO reason that they could not simply issue an additional firmware update to add 4K (XAVCS 50Mbps 4K/30p, pretty much the same as XAVCS, 50Mbps 1080/60p).

I have a feeling that Sony is holding back trying to improve performance (note the x70 getting 4K as a later "upgrade", even with the AX100 "in the wild") as the Panasonic samples posted are less than stellar, but it would do them well to release 3.0 firmware to add the additional capability.

The ONLY possible issue I can see is sensor heating, but since the 1080/60p XAVCS works PERFECTLY (and looks purty darn close to 4K IQ at that!), I really doubt that a whole new "RX10M2" or "RX20" is needed to bring the additional firepower to the table, when a firmware update would do the trick for existing customers and open up the doors to others. I can understand where the tiny RX100 series might have heat issues (no where to dissipate it!), but with both the RX10 and RX100M3 doing XAVCS 1080p at high bitrates.... I think the capability is THERE, just needs to be unleashed!

I for one am thrilled with the 2.0 firmware results, and would hope to see Sony support EXISTING customers and capabilities of the hardware. Especially at the premium price point of the RX10, another firmware upgrade would make good customer relations! I might also pick up a "RX20" should there be improvements elsewhere in the design, but honestly wouldn't do it JUST for 4K after the RX10 2.0 firmware.

And yes, it takes some effort to get a 4K capable computer up and running... been there, got the t-shirt... but it's worth it! I managed to do it on the cheap, and my existing system was due to upgrade. You do need faster SDXC cards, but at less than .50/G, it's not TOO bad.

Cliff Totten · September 29th, 2014, 06:39 PM

The biggest question will be; Will Sony match Lumix and give the RX20 100Mbp/s recording or will it be stuck with 60 Mbp/s?

I strongly suspect that Sony will only allow 60. Based on yhe RX20 price and where it fits in the Sony fleet, they probably won't have the guts to give it a better bit rate.

Also....I really hope they give it clean 4:2:0, 8bit 4k/UHD HDMI with no external recording time limits.

Noa Put · September 30th, 2014, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

Since Sony released the 2.0 firmware for the RX10, IMO there is probably NO reason that they could not simply issue an additional firmware update to add 4K (XAVCS 50Mbps 4K/30p, pretty much the same as XAVCS, 50Mbps 1080/60p).

Maybe not from out point of view but Sony would be stupid to make 4k available through a firmware update, selling the same camera as a 4K version with a different name (rx20), maybe throw in a extra feature or 2 and raise the price by another 500 euro and assure the cash is flowing in again. They probably gave a better codec in the rx10 so it could compete with equally prized 4k camera's, Sony only gives presents for a reason and that's not to please their customers..

Ken Ross · September 30th, 2014, 07:50 AM

This one caught my eye. Many of us have conjectured what a great camera like the RX10 would be if it had 4K. The wait may soon be over:

Rumor: Sony Fires Back Against Panasonic, Will Release a 4K-Capable RX20 in Mid-October

Lawrence Bansbach · September 30th, 2014, 08:53 AM

The Panasonic FZ1000 (which is getting a 24p firmware upgrade) is under $900, while the RX20 is rumored to cost nearly 50% more.

Kyle Root · September 30th, 2014, 09:12 AM

I wonder how will that intercuts with the a7s. May be a good B-cam.

Lawrence Bansbach · September 30th, 2014, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle Root

I wonder how will that intercuts with the a7s. May be a good B-cam.

I imagine its PQ is very similar to the AX100's.

Dave Blackhurst · September 30th, 2014, 01:05 PM

The sensor/processor is supposedly the same as the AX100... so it's "doable' as the RX10 sits. The fact that the RX10 now does XAVCS 1080/60p @50Mbps with Firmware 2.0 tells me that offering the same 4K/30p XAVCS @50Mbps in "3.0" firmware should NOT be a difficulty. It's unlocking what is already THERE!! They also could and should "unlock" the RX100M3!

Obviously the RX10 COULD record much better quality, higher bitrate video, RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX... but didn't until the feature was unlocked. SONY could generate a lot of "street cred" by releasing firmware "nuggets" that improve the performance of an already purchased product - my RX10 now keeps up with the AX100, where it looked a tad "dated" and just a tad disappointing with AVCHD...

I'm hoping the Samsung 4K release will put the needed pressure on to make Sony let these cats out of the bag.

I'll admit to not understanding Sony sometimes - at times they seem to "lead" (AX100), other times they seem to hold back when they could be way ahead, and get "scooped" (FZ1000). I suspect some of it is internal confusion when there are "negative" reviews (like the AX100), they get a little scared and step back...

Noa Put · October 1st, 2014, 03:34 AM

Quote:

my RX10 now keeps up with the AX100, where it looked a tad "dated" and just a tad disappointing with AVCHD...

In what way do you see that difference? I have used it on a wedding but honestly can't see any difference. I"m sure I would on high detail scenes with motion when I would freezeframe shots and pixel peep but that's not how I view my films, my rx10 footage looks exactly the same to me before and after the firmware update.

Dave Blackhurst · October 1st, 2014, 06:30 PM

I did some "high motion" before and after tests (shots of a running ceiling fan, breaks EVERY CODEC!). XAVCS "breaks" (macroblocking, some smearing), but not not nearly as badly as AVCHD

You gain both smoothness in areas that normally might get a little blotchy with AVCHD, and you get detail in areas where it'll just be "nothing" with AVCHD.

Run a few tests of the same scene, you'll want to never shoot AVCHD again... and it actually does "keep up" with the 4K of the AX fairly well, where the AVCHD does start to appear a bit "behind".

Lawrence Bansbach · October 2nd, 2014, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

I'll admit to not understanding Sony sometimes - at times they seem to "lead" (AX100), other times they seem to hold back when they could be way ahead, and get "scooped" (FZ1000). I suspect some of it is internal confusion when there are "negative" reviews (like the AX100), they get a little scared and step back...

You'd think that if there's a negative review, they would try harder, fix the problem in firmware (if possible), and add even more features, rather than try less hard and retrench.

Dave Blackhurst · October 2nd, 2014, 01:34 PM

Well, in the case of the AX100, some of the criticism was "user malfunction", but a manufacturer has to be careful with being on the bleeding edge - it's a balance between being innovative, and dealing with people who don't know how to use the product, and so bash it for no reason or invalid ones...

Especially now with "social media" and EVERYONE has an opinion, whether they know anything or not... it's rough to break new ground only to be met with unwarranted or ignorant "opinion" that might kill a product (or in this case the whole 4K category introduction).

There's a lot riding on the 4K transition, and I suspect Sony is smart enough not to be too far ahead of the technology. I myself have found, and continue to find it "interesting" to have 4K capable computer "stuff", but because of driver issues, it can be a bit touchy (decktop) or not work at all (laptop, that can't install the latest drivers that at least "mostly" work).

Life on the bleeding edge can be a tricky proposition... but I still say they can update the RX10 firmware if and when they feel the market warrants it - I'd like to see it, but I'll bet it would result in complaints by some who aren't prepared to work with it! Even though some of us would be cheering loudly!

As an example, I've noticed quite a few RX100M3's being (re)sold with lower spec SDHC cards - wonder how many complaints they get about video quality because the user didn't buy the "special" higher speed and capacity cards required? And if it had 4K, I'm sure there would be even more "complaints" that were nothing more than lack of user reading the minimum requirements, and also problems with "output" because there aren't a lot of 4K capable systems out there just yet.

September 27th, 2014, 03:39 AM	#1
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	Rumors of a 4K Sony RX20 There's rumors going around about a 4K RX20 to be released in October, '14. I'm not surprised if this is true. Panasonic already has the 4K FZ1000. Why wouldn't Sony make the RX10 as a 4K camera?

September 27th, 2014, 03:53 AM	#2
James Manford Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,393	Re: Rumors of a 4K Sony RX20 Makes sense for Sony to try and match Panasonics offerings. I purchased the FZ1000 two days ago as my fingers where itching on ebay and I absolutely regret it. 4K raw files lag on my PC when i'm already adding to multi-camera streams in Sony Vegas. The FZ1000's menu system is unfamiliar (considering I use ONLY SONY cameras) and not as quick to set up as my PJ780VE camcorder, which means I will miss essential shots in the field when im working. Batteries run out too quickly. I have to purchase MANY replacement batteries. It is a nightmare to change the battery / memory card with a quick release plate on, so I have to always remove the release plate. Oh did I mention the amount of memory 4K takes up? and the 29min limit. No good for using during ceremonies then. My FZ1000 is being returned back to the seller. I can't upgrade to 4K for many years as when I do, I need to buy more storage (hard drives and 128gb memory cards) and a better PC. Too much to invest in at the moment considering I just purchased a FS700 this year.

September 29th, 2014, 04:59 PM	#3
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Rumors of a 4K Sony RX20 Since Sony released the 2.0 firmware for the RX10, IMO there is probably NO reason that they could not simply issue an additional firmware update to add 4K (XAVCS 50Mbps 4K/30p, pretty much the same as XAVCS, 50Mbps 1080/60p). I have a feeling that Sony is holding back trying to improve performance (note the x70 getting 4K as a later "upgrade", even with the AX100 "in the wild") as the Panasonic samples posted are less than stellar, but it would do them well to release 3.0 firmware to add the additional capability. The ONLY possible issue I can see is sensor heating, but since the 1080/60p XAVCS works PERFECTLY (and looks purty darn close to 4K IQ at that!), I really doubt that a whole new "RX10M2" or "RX20" is needed to bring the additional firepower to the table, when a firmware update would do the trick for existing customers and open up the doors to others. I can understand where the tiny RX100 series might have heat issues (no where to dissipate it!), but with both the RX10 and RX100M3 doing XAVCS 1080p at high bitrates.... I think the capability is THERE, just needs to be unleashed! I for one am thrilled with the 2.0 firmware results, and would hope to see Sony support EXISTING customers and capabilities of the hardware. Especially at the premium price point of the RX10, another firmware upgrade would make good customer relations! I might also pick up a "RX20" should there be improvements elsewhere in the design, but honestly wouldn't do it JUST for 4K after the RX10 2.0 firmware. And yes, it takes some effort to get a 4K capable computer up and running... been there, got the t-shirt... but it's worth it! I managed to do it on the cheap, and my existing system was due to upgrade. You do need faster SDXC cards, but at less than .50/G, it's not TOO bad.

September 29th, 2014, 06:39 PM	#4
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Re: Rumors of a 4K Sony RX20 The biggest question will be; Will Sony match Lumix and give the RX20 100Mbp/s recording or will it be stuck with 60 Mbp/s? I strongly suspect that Sony will only allow 60. Based on yhe RX20 price and where it fits in the Sony fleet, they probably won't have the guts to give it a better bit rate. Also....I really hope they give it clean 4:2:0, 8bit 4k/UHD HDMI with no external recording time limits.

September 30th, 2014, 07:50 AM	#6
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Sony RX20 coming! This one caught my eye. Many of us have conjectured what a great camera like the RX10 would be if it had 4K. The wait may soon be over: Rumor: Sony Fires Back Against Panasonic, Will Release a 4K-Capable RX20 in Mid-October

September 30th, 2014, 08:53 AM	#7
Lawrence Bansbach Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 295	Re: Sony RX20 coming! The Panasonic FZ1000 (which is getting a 24p firmware upgrade) is under $900, while the RX20 is rumored to cost nearly 50% more.

September 30th, 2014, 09:12 AM	#8
Kyle Root Major Player Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Decatur, AL Posts: 883	Re: Sony RX20 coming! I wonder how will that intercuts with the a7s. May be a good B-cam. __________________ Kyle KR Productions; www.kyleroot.com

September 30th, 2014, 01:05 PM	#10
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Rumors of a 4K Sony RX20 The sensor/processor is supposedly the same as the AX100... so it's "doable' as the RX10 sits. The fact that the RX10 now does XAVCS 1080/60p @50Mbps with Firmware 2.0 tells me that offering the same 4K/30p XAVCS @50Mbps in "3.0" firmware should NOT be a difficulty. It's unlocking what is already THERE!! They also could and should "unlock" the RX100M3! Obviously the RX10 COULD record much better quality, higher bitrate video, RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX... but didn't until the feature was unlocked. SONY could generate a lot of "street cred" by releasing firmware "nuggets" that improve the performance of an already purchased product - my RX10 now keeps up with the AX100, where it looked a tad "dated" and just a tad disappointing with AVCHD... I'm hoping the Samsung 4K release will put the needed pressure on to make Sony let these cats out of the bag. I'll admit to not understanding Sony sometimes - at times they seem to "lead" (AX100), other times they seem to hold back when they could be way ahead, and get "scooped" (FZ1000). I suspect some of it is internal confusion when there are "negative" reviews (like the AX100), they get a little scared and step back...

October 1st, 2014, 06:30 PM	#12
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Rumors of a 4K Sony RX20 I did some "high motion" before and after tests (shots of a running ceiling fan, breaks EVERY CODEC!). XAVCS "breaks" (macroblocking, some smearing), but not not nearly as badly as AVCHD You gain both smoothness in areas that normally might get a little blotchy with AVCHD, and you get detail in areas where it'll just be "nothing" with AVCHD. Run a few tests of the same scene, you'll want to never shoot AVCHD again... and it actually does "keep up" with the 4K of the AX fairly well, where the AVCHD does start to appear a bit "behind".

October 2nd, 2014, 01:34 PM	#14
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Rumors of a 4K Sony RX20 Well, in the case of the AX100, some of the criticism was "user malfunction", but a manufacturer has to be careful with being on the bleeding edge - it's a balance between being innovative, and dealing with people who don't know how to use the product, and so bash it for no reason or invalid ones... Especially now with "social media" and EVERYONE has an opinion, whether they know anything or not... it's rough to break new ground only to be met with unwarranted or ignorant "opinion" that might kill a product (or in this case the whole 4K category introduction). There's a lot riding on the 4K transition, and I suspect Sony is smart enough not to be too far ahead of the technology. I myself have found, and continue to find it "interesting" to have 4K capable computer "stuff", but because of driver issues, it can be a bit touchy (decktop) or not work at all (laptop, that can't install the latest drivers that at least "mostly" work). Life on the bleeding edge can be a tricky proposition... but I still say they can update the RX10 firmware if and when they feel the market warrants it - I'd like to see it, but I'll bet it would result in complaints by some who aren't prepared to work with it! Even though some of us would be cheering loudly! As an example, I've noticed quite a few RX100M3's being (re)sold with lower spec SDHC cards - wonder how many complaints they get about video quality because the user didn't buy the "special" higher speed and capacity cards required? And if it had 4K, I'm sure there would be even more "complaints" that were nothing more than lack of user reading the minimum requirements, and also problems with "output" because there aren't a lot of 4K capable systems out there just yet.