What Canon needs to do at DVinfo.net

Michael Struthers · March 16th, 2005, 08:32 PM

Seems like a few companies have pushed into Canon's market from all sides...

Sony has them on price and 1080i, and portable form factor...

JVC is coming out with HDV 720p 24p and muscliing in on the interchangeable lens thing.

Panny will be coming out with 50 and 100 mgbits of HD...and a proven indie workhorse upgrade...

Here's how you can beat them, Canon!

A ONE-CHIP 2/3" 1080p 24p cam. You've got no upper line to protect, what the heck are you wating for? It's one chip, so it'll keep the price down....you sell the HD lenses if you want as well...the DOF will be shorter than the JVC, the image on par with the panny...

No I don't know what codec you should use. Perhaps a new one?
The XL2 will be toast much sooner that the xl1s was, so get with the program.

<--- closet Canon fan; I'm still abusing an old Optura XI if I'm not renting anything.

Rhett Allen · March 16th, 2005, 08:49 PM

Heck why stop there? Make it have a 35mm chip like their high end Digital SLR's so there's no multiplication factor with lens conversions! Of course their Digital SLR "still" camera runs around $8K for the body only. Small problem there.

Tom Hardwick · March 18th, 2005, 01:08 AM

I reckon you've got a point there Michael. The XL2 sure looks mighty expensive when placed alongside the Z1, and unless you're 110% sure you want the interchangable lens facility there seems little reason to opt for it.

tom.

Rob Lohman · March 19th, 2005, 06:49 AM

Tom: how about true progressive or 24 fps? The FX1/Z1 doesn't
offer either. It *only* has HD resolution (which is very nice if that
is what you want indeed).

However, I'd much rather have the XL2 (or any SD progressive
camera) for true progressive then HD which (and this is very
personal!!!):

- has a not so pleasant workflow (compared to DV)

- is no use to me since there is nothing HD here in Europe and I ain't going out to film either

Now notice I'm NOT TRYING to knock the camera or the HD format
or workflow. I'm just saying it isn't workable or needed for me at
this point in time.

I just want progressive (and true 16:9 is nice to have as well).

Although Canon might be wise to look at the HD market (no doubt
they already have a game plan), it still looks like they are selling
plenty of XL2's.

But hey, hopefully people are all going to abandon the XL1S and
XL2 line so I can pick some up very cheap <g>

Tom Hardwick · March 19th, 2005, 02:14 PM

You make a good argument for the XL2 Rob, and your post is a good reminder that we should buy the kit that does the job, and not squander money on HDV (say) when it simply isn't needed. I just wish the XL2 had used slightly bigger chips with all the advantages this brings. They were designing a new 20x zoom, why not keep it as a 16x but give it the covering power for 1.42" chips (say).

tom.

Michael Struthers · March 21st, 2005, 06:07 PM

Is there a place on the web where you can find camera sales info?

Luis Caffesse · March 21st, 2005, 06:21 PM

Michael, if you happen to find anything like that, let me know.
I've been looking for sales numbers for both the DVX and the XL cameras... and all I found out is that both companies seem to hold their sales figures as highly confidential.

If you find any information online, please make sure to post a link here.

Thanks!

Darko Flajpan · March 22nd, 2005, 09:21 AM

Well, I was thinking to upgrade from XM2 to XL2. Lots of money to add. Instead I've invested in great light kit 3*800W & 3*150W Kobold ligths with stands. Also added 2 Lastolite reflectors. The difference - HUGE!. Ain't thinking to upgrade camera for some time...

Cleveland Brown · March 30th, 2005, 02:39 AM

What if they incorporate a D2D type interface like the FS-4 technology? Then we could have more control over variable frame rates and at some point they can do away with the whole pulldown process. It would seem to me like someone wants to keep a certain level of complication in this whole thing to weed aout the learners from the non-learneres. And that is fine to a certain extent. However, technology is supposed to make things easier.

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 30th, 2005, 09:40 AM

Rumor has it --this IS area 51 so no complaining-- that Canon has already developed a prosumer HD product. They are just waiting for the HDV format to settle down and then they will finish programming the firmware and put the product on the shelves. It most likely is not a larger sensor, allthough we would like that. It's most likely a reprogrammed XL2.

Yes, Canon has the potential to blow everybody away by making a 35mm sensor video camera that uses their photo lenses. But I don't think they have THAT ready yet, so it's ok to ask.

The problem is, for 35mm to work with photo lenses, a new type of sensor needs to be developed with an intermediate semi transparent surface or something like that, because the way photo lenses work light is thrown onto the sensor at different angles and current CCDs don't like that.

March 16th, 2005, 08:32 PM	#1
Michael Struthers Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: SF, Ca Posts: 421	What Canon needs to do Seems like a few companies have pushed into Canon's market from all sides... Sony has them on price and 1080i, and portable form factor... JVC is coming out with HDV 720p 24p and muscliing in on the interchangeable lens thing. Panny will be coming out with 50 and 100 mgbits of HD...and a proven indie workhorse upgrade... Here's how you can beat them, Canon! A ONE-CHIP 2/3" 1080p 24p cam. You've got no upper line to protect, what the heck are you wating for? It's one chip, so it'll keep the price down....you sell the HD lenses if you want as well...the DOF will be shorter than the JVC, the image on par with the panny... No I don't know what codec you should use. Perhaps a new one? The XL2 will be toast much sooner that the xl1s was, so get with the program. <--- closet Canon fan; I'm still abusing an old Optura XI if I'm not renting anything. __________________ Michael Struthers www.buzzdigital.com

March 19th, 2005, 06:49 AM	#4
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Tom: how about true progressive or 24 fps? The FX1/Z1 doesn't offer either. It only has HD resolution (which is very nice if that is what you want indeed). However, I'd much rather have the XL2 (or any SD progressive camera) for true progressive then HD which (and this is very personal!!!): - has a not so pleasant workflow (compared to DV) - is no use to me since there is nothing HD here in Europe and I ain't going out to film either Now notice I'm NOT TRYING to knock the camera or the HD format or workflow. I'm just saying it isn't workable or needed for me at this point in time. I just want progressive (and true 16:9 is nice to have as well). Although Canon might be wise to look at the HD market (no doubt they already have a game plan), it still looks like they are selling plenty of XL2's. But hey, hopefully people are all going to abandon the XL1S and XL2 line so I can pick some up very cheap <g> __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

March 21st, 2005, 06:07 PM	#6
Michael Struthers Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: SF, Ca Posts: 421	Is there a place on the web where you can find camera sales info? __________________ Michael Struthers www.buzzdigital.com

March 21st, 2005, 06:21 PM	#7
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	Michael, if you happen to find anything like that, let me know. I've been looking for sales numbers for both the DVX and the XL cameras... and all I found out is that both companies seem to hold their sales figures as highly confidential. If you find any information online, please make sure to post a link here. Thanks! __________________ Luis Caffesse Pitch Productions Austin, Texas

March 22nd, 2005, 09:21 AM	#8
Darko Flajpan Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Bjelovar, Croatia Posts: 153	Well, I was thinking to upgrade from XM2 to XL2. Lots of money to add. Instead I've invested in great light kit 3800W & 3150W Kobold ligths with stands. Also added 2 Lastolite reflectors. The difference - HUGE!. Ain't thinking to upgrade camera for some time... __________________ XM2 Sony DXC637P BetaSP

March 16th, 2005, 08:49 PM	#2
Rhett Allen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Plano, TX Posts: 607	Heck why stop there? Make it have a 35mm chip like their high end Digital SLR's so there's no multiplication factor with lens conversions! Of course their Digital SLR "still" camera runs around $8K for the body only. Small problem there.

March 18th, 2005, 01:08 AM	#3
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	I reckon you've got a point there Michael. The XL2 sure looks mighty expensive when placed alongside the Z1, and unless you're 110% sure you want the interchangable lens facility there seems little reason to opt for it. tom.

March 19th, 2005, 02:14 PM	#5
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	You make a good argument for the XL2 Rob, and your post is a good reminder that we should buy the kit that does the job, and not squander money on HDV (say) when it simply isn't needed. I just wish the XL2 had used slightly bigger chips with all the advantages this brings. They were designing a new 20x zoom, why not keep it as a 16x but give it the covering power for 1.42" chips (say). tom.

March 30th, 2005, 02:39 AM	#9
Cleveland Brown Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: St. Louis MO Posts: 138	What if they incorporate a D2D type interface like the FS-4 technology? Then we could have more control over variable frame rates and at some point they can do away with the whole pulldown process. It would seem to me like someone wants to keep a certain level of complication in this whole thing to weed aout the learners from the non-learneres. And that is fine to a certain extent. However, technology is supposed to make things easier. __________________ CLEVE-ij

March 30th, 2005, 09:40 AM	#10
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Rumor has it --this IS area 51 so no complaining-- that Canon has already developed a prosumer HD product. They are just waiting for the HDV format to settle down and then they will finish programming the firmware and put the product on the shelves. It most likely is not a larger sensor, allthough we would like that. It's most likely a reprogrammed XL2. Yes, Canon has the potential to blow everybody away by making a 35mm sensor video camera that uses their photo lenses. But I don't think they have THAT ready yet, so it's ok to ask. The problem is, for 35mm to work with photo lenses, a new type of sensor needs to be developed with an intermediate semi transparent surface or something like that, because the way photo lenses work light is thrown onto the sensor at different angles and current CCDs don't like that. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.