canon xl HD DV?

[Bill Pryor]

I think that, indeed, is the question. A writer in last week's TV Technology (I think that's the one, but I'll check later) said Canon was going to have an HDV camera. Didn't say when.

[Rob Lohman]

Moved to our own Area 51...

[Ignacio Rodriguez]

> camera that could do all three modes; DV/HDV/DVCPro-HD

Well since we are in area 51... why not? If it has the encoder and resolution for HDV and also has the encoder for DV all it needs to do is pass the high res image to the DV encoder instead of the MPEG2 encoder. At the right resolution this would result in a 100 Mbps stream. The extra cost would be adding the storage for 100 Mbps, that would have to be solid state or disk.

[Bill Pryor]

I'm gonna vote for Canon to do simply the 720p. And, wouldn't it be nice if they got rid of the white.

[Heath McKnight]

JVC is leaning towards a 720/24p camera, I hear, that's under $5000.

hwm

[Ignacio Rodriguez]

720p or 1080i can both be implemented as HDV or DVCPROHD. However excluding MPEG2 encoding could allow for a less expensive camera. Excluding a tape drive would make it less expensive still!

[Kevin Dooley]

<<<-- Originally posted by Bill Pryor : And, wouldn't it be nice if they got rid of the white. -->>>

I know, I know--this is merely a personal preference issue... but I love the white. It's kind of nice having a camera and line that instantly recognizable and very well thought of... I guess I'd feel different if the XL series were crap...

[Ignacio Rodriguez]

If making it black brings down the price, I'm all for it.

[Greg Boston]

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley :
I know, I know--this is merely a personal preference issue... but I love the white. It's kind of nice having a camera and line that instantly recognizable and very well thought of... -->>>

Funny you should mention that Kevin. I was watching CSI:Miami this evening and they had a female murder victim who was a freelancer that supplied packages to the local affiliate. When they did the flash-back scene of how she got murdered, she was shooting footage wielding non other than our beloved Canon XL. I didn't really appreciate the comment made by Horacios's boss that she was a 'bottom feeder' because she was a freelancer.

-gb-

[Kevin Dooley]

<<<-- Originally posted by Greg Boston : I didn't really appreciate the comment made by Horacios's boss that she was a 'bottom feeder' because she was a freelancer.

-gb- -->>>

Yeah, as an on again, off again free lancer myself, that's a little not right... free lance simply means that you don't work with a set company... how would that make you a bottom feeder?

Crappy Hollywood. I hate them, and yet, I love them... oh the travesties of life....

And now, we're way off topic...

[Bill Pryor]

I think of myself more like a hooker than a bottom-feeder. We sell ourselves to businessmen for the time it takes to get the deed done, we remain aloof and independent, and we move on to new streetcorners when they cut their budgets, always looking for new prospects.

[Phil Johnston]

Canon are having a hard time in the UK as the Sony Z1 has taken centre stage and has brought sales of the XL2 to a stand still.
They are rumoured to be offering the 3x WA lens as part of a sweetner in future sales...this in my opinion would be seen badly by those of us who have forked out £950 for the lens only 4 weeks ago ! I must admit that the Sony Z1 which I also own is a superb camera and well recomended. We are producing our first project in 16:9 DVCAM mode and the pics are stunning...thats before we even use HD mode which is for future projects and the advent of Apple Tiger and FC Pro-5 HD.

[Jon Fordham]

Simon,

I've been busy shooting a project the last few weeks and haven't had the time to address your question regarding "the HD look" that Heath brought to my attention.

In all honesty, the "HD Look" is just as subjective a thing as the "Film Look". But in my opinion, the HD look has three properties that I can usually spot. I call these three properties: sheen, tone, and pop. Forgive me if the following descriptions fall short in regards to conveying what I mean by those terms. I'm a cinematographer, not a writer...

Sheen. When footage from a high resolution source (HDCAM) is downconverted to a lower resolution format (DVCAM or DVD) , it usually has a certain look to it that I call a "sheen". Think of the sheen of a rose petal. That light, almost imperceptible layer of... I don't know, sheen. It's kind of a very light pro-mist look.

Tone. Images that are captured with a high resolution camera system such a HDC27F Varicam or a Sony F900 Cine-Alta, retain the many fine details and subtleties that are often lacking in images captured with lower resoltion camera systems. The capture and retention of these subtle details create a certain "tone" in terms of contrast. An even transition between highlight and shadow.

Pop. This is one that is much easier to describe and something I've reffered to on these boards before. I'm talking about that unmistakable high res pop that you get from the incredible sharpness and detail from High Definition cameras.

So for me, the task of creating the look of HD would involve instilling the above characteristics to whatever camera/format I was working with. There's no denying that a great many cinematographer uses the ubiquitous Tiffen Pro-Mist filter to diffuse and create a glow. And plenty of those guys are still using them with HD cameras. So one way to create a type of sheen would be to use a very light pro-mist filer. I'm talking no more than a 1/4.

Since the tone I'm describing involves not only detail, but contrast, I would then employ a contrast filter. Which one, and what grade would depend on my suject and particular shooting conditions. A contrast filter would bring your contrast down to a more even place that will, at very least, give you that tone. And maybe even bring a little more fine detail out that could be lost in the harder contrast.

Unfortunately, that high res pop is the most difficult characteristic to emulate. The only advice I can offer that would be a step in a similiar direction is employing shallow depth of field. By limiting your depth of field you can more easily isolate your subject in the frame. This of course does all the standard things it's supposed to do like drawing the viewers eye to where you want it, and lending a more polished, professional "film look". And that more isolated, sharply focussed subject will take you a step closer to the illusion of "pop"!

It's worth noting that Bill Pryor's comments regarding the DSR-500WS are dead on. Of the very many camera systems and formats that I've worked with over the last few years, the Sony DSR-500WS is without a doubt one of the best performing cameras I've worked with. And, when uprezzed to HD, those 2/3" widescreen CCD's go a long way in giving you excellent uncompromised source material.

If anyone in the southern California area is interested in viewing some DSR-500WS material that has gone through an HD uprez, I suggest you visit the Damah Film Festival next Friday March 11. The Damah Film Festival is screening the award winning short film Blackwater Elegy that I shot for 95 These Entertainment and NFocus Visual Comminuacations. Directed by Joe O'Brien and Matthew Porter, Blackwater Elegy stars Barry Corbin (One Tree Hill, Northern Exposure) and John Cullum (Law & Order: SVU, ER).

I shot this film with a Sony DSR-500WSPL/1 PAL DVCAM camera. I replaced the typical Canon industrial lens with a Fujinon HD-EC T2.1 zoom lens. Since the DSR-500WSPL/1 is a 50i PAL camera, we had the advantage of a bit higher vertical resolution than NTSC and a 25fps frame rate. BUT those 25fps were still interlaced with the tell tale "video look". After being cut in SD uncompressed, the 50i PAL master was uprezzed using a Teranex converter. The Teranex system interpolated the 50 interlaced fields into 25 whole frames and uprezzed them to 1080P. Then the 1080/25P was played back with a 4% slow down to 24fps for a final 1080/23.98Psf HDCAM master. I do not know whether or not the Damah Film Festival will be screening the HDCAM master or a downconverted version the HDCAM master. Either way, it's worth viewing for anyone interested in seeing DVCAM upconverted to HDCAM and/or donwconverted HDCAM back to SD. The downconverted NTSC master of the film runs at 24fps with the standard 2:3 pulldown like any other 24 frame material retainning the 24fps motion signature.

Blackwater Elegy has won 6 Best Short Film Awards. John Cullum won the Best Supporting Actor Award at the 2004 Tambay Film Festival for his portrayal of J.T. And I won the Best Cinematography Award at the 2004 Thunderbird International Film Festival for my work on the film.

Blackwater Elegy is screening as part of Nominated Films in the 30 minute category next Friday evening March 11 at the Laemmle Music Hall Theater in Beverly Hills.

[Steven White]

If I were a Canon engineer and faced with the prospect of making an HDV camera to compete with an interchangable JVC with a special brand of 24p, a Panasonic, and the Sony FX1/Z1U with 1080i and the CF modes I would try to build on the 1080i standard, and implement true 30p, and true 1440x1080 24p with a pull-down scheme, or a new encoding scheme like it seems JVC is proposing.

If you had a choice in a true 24p format war between:
1280x720 HDV @ 19 Mbps (or 25 Mpbs?) (JVC)
960x720 DVCPRO-HD @ 40 Mbps (Panasonic)
1440x1080p HDV @ 25 Mbps (Canon)

Which would you pick?

[Heath McKnight]

I'd rent whichever was good enough for me and the DP.

heath