XL1S discontinued?! Guess why... ;)

Jarred Land · July 2nd, 2004, 08:51 PM

Cavision and Optex make a pretty good 2x. Century optics make a 1.6x that have very good glass, and there are even crappy ones on ebay for $150. Depends what your looking for I guess.

Chris Hurd · July 2nd, 2004, 09:24 PM

Luis

Canon used to show the balsa-cams back in the day. The very first time the XL1 was displayed in public, back in the fall of 1997, it was termite fodder. Funny thing about those wooden mock-ups, they're very expensive to make. Just like other manufacturers, they have development projects and prototypes and mock-ups and whatnot, they just don't bring 'em to trade shows anymore.

Jarred Land · July 2nd, 2004, 09:35 PM

yeah.. that Panasonic Balsa cam at NAB cost as much as a Porsche. Seriously.

Canon's booth at Nab this year was strangley very boring looking, in fact so was the one at DVexpo. I have a feeling they are saving thier marketing pennies to really market the XL2.. Its will be exciting Im sure.

Ken Tanaka · July 2nd, 2004, 10:58 PM

Jarred,
I think you have misread my post. My remark concerning "young males" was certainly not directed as a barb toward you whatsoever. With that, I was merely portraying a consumer profile for these cameras.

No poke intended.

Chris Hurd · July 2nd, 2004, 11:11 PM

I wonder how politically incorrect we could get if we actually did start to do some social profiling based on camcorder choice. Heh. Is there an "on the fast track to becoming an old fart" camcorder? Sign me up.

Daniel Broadway · July 3rd, 2004, 09:51 AM

Well, I use a Canon GL2. I don't use frame mode However, I film-look it in After Effects.

Also, I'm using the GL2 to made a live action version of a Anime style fight in the sky. Imagine something similar to the fight between Neo and Smith at the end of Revolutions.

SO what kind of profile can you deduce about me? Ha ha.

Oh oh, let's get back on topic, go XL2! Give me 24p or give me death!

Mark Kubat · July 3rd, 2004, 09:55 AM

Gosh, I think Canon has to come out with something super-revolutionary like 3-chip HDV this time around to stop the AGDVX-100 juggernaut - if it's just another interchangeable-lens SD 1/3" with say 24p, even with 16:9, Canon would just be "pulling up alongside" panasonic... i hope there will be a high-effective pixel count on the 3 chips at least - looking at the specs for the new panasonic gs400, man, it's amazing what panasonic is offering to the starving-artist indie guy who wants to make movies... Why would Canon be a part of the HDV collective and then not do anything on the camera side?

Barry Goyette · July 3rd, 2004, 12:12 PM

I don't think we'll see anything "revolutionary" from canon on this camera. Canon's video division is a very small place...we're not talking sony or panasonic here...Canon BUYS most of its technology in this field (versus the still camera arena where they make everything).

The xl1s replacement cam will most likely have the same panasonic chips as the dvx100, and an enhanced menu system not unlike that same camera. We might also hope for a flip out LCD, and I would bet that we'll get xlr inputs. And seeing as the only official statement about the camera (over a year ago) said that it would probably have 24p...I think thats a safe bet. After all that, the xl-whatever will be the best camera in it's market segment..period, because the strength of the xl camera series is in the PLATFORM, not in some new, hyped up technology.

Nick Hiltgen · July 3rd, 2004, 12:20 PM

Unfortunately I agree with barry. The only thing that makes me think that it wouldn't be something like that is the fact that so many people (who apparently know what they're talking about insist that this is a camera that will blow us away, or will defintely hold it's market share for more then 6 months. I don't think a dvx 100 with 16:9 chips and an interchangable lens will do such a thing (unless maybe they bring out some sort of 3d lens...)

So tell me all you sage advisors of everything canon out here, Am I looking for too much in hoping that the Canon camera is more then a gussied up dvx100(a)? What do you think?

Barry Goyette · July 3rd, 2004, 12:36 PM

Nick

Here's the thing... the market segment that these two cameras compete in is in the prosumer digital cinema area. The DVX is the first camera in this range to offer the resolution, progressive capture, and 24p components of this picture, but it's still basically in the form factor of an amateur camcorder. The xl1s is still the only camera in this market segment that looks, and acts and feels like a real camera...ok--professional camera...the only reason I still use my xl1s at all is because I will not give up my manual lens...the dvx can't offer you this kind of control. Now by marrying the best of what the DVX offers with the platform of the XL series...this is not a gussied up dvx...this is simply the best camera available under $10,000. That blows my mind.

Barry

Ken Tanaka · July 3rd, 2004, 12:40 PM

I think Barry's remarks are on-target concerning what to expect. That's a feature set deliverable within the $4,000+/- price bracket, which will probably remain the goal.

Barry will win the contest and receive a free XL2. <g>

Barry Goyette · July 3rd, 2004, 12:44 PM

contest....what contest...?

Don Berube · July 3rd, 2004, 01:09 PM

Well said Barry! You definitely have a good understanding of the market. Youv'e got some great images too!

- don

Luis Caffesse · July 3rd, 2004, 02:39 PM

"if it's just another interchangeable-lens SD 1/3" with say 24p,
even with 16:9, Canon would just be "pulling up alongside" panasonic...

Just another?
The DVX doesn't offer interchangeable lenses or true 16:9.
If Canon pulls off the features you outlined, they would not only
pull up alongside panasonic, they would leave them behind.

A camera with all the features you mention would be the
ultimate DV camera. Everyone keeps talking about HD and HDV,
but honestly, I just keep waiting for a manufacturer to give
us all the features we want in a 1/3" DV camera. Up to date,
every camera seems handicapped in some way.

If we could get the 24p, Gamma settings, LCD & XLRs of the DVX
with the lens system and viewfinder options of an XL1, PLUS true
16:9 images...that camera would be the most complete 1/3" DV
camera around. Not to mention, it would sell like hotcakes.

Not exactly something to brush over, in my opinion.

-Luis

Daniel Broadway · July 3rd, 2004, 03:44 PM

I agree. I doubt the XL2 will have HD. It *might*, but I kinda doubt it. It takes about 18 months to go from drawing boards to finished product. And HDV was only approved in like September 2003. Maybe October, I don't remember.

However, if Canon new about HDV before it was actually approved. They might have something HD heading our way.

If it shot 24p and was true 16:9, that would be pretty sweet to me.

July 2nd, 2004, 09:24 PM	#212
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Luis Canon used to show the balsa-cams back in the day. The very first time the XL1 was displayed in public, back in the fall of 1997, it was termite fodder. Funny thing about those wooden mock-ups, they're very expensive to make. Just like other manufacturers, they have development projects and prototypes and mock-ups and whatnot, they just don't bring 'em to trade shows anymore. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 2nd, 2004, 10:58 PM	#214
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Jarred, I think you have misread my post. My remark concerning "young males" was certainly not directed as a barb toward you whatsoever. With that, I was merely portraying a consumer profile for these cameras. No poke intended. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

July 2nd, 2004, 11:11 PM	#215
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	I wonder how politically incorrect we could get if we actually did start to do some social profiling based on camcorder choice. Heh. Is there an "on the fast track to becoming an old fart" camcorder? Sign me up. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 3rd, 2004, 12:40 PM	#221
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	I think Barry's remarks are on-target concerning what to expect. That's a feature set deliverable within the $4,000+/- price bracket, which will probably remain the goal. Barry will win the contest and receive a free XL2. <g> __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

July 3rd, 2004, 01:09 PM	#223
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	Well said Barry! You definitely have a good understanding of the market. Youv'e got some great images too! - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

July 2nd, 2004, 08:51 PM	#211
Jarred Land DVX User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 281	Cavision and Optex make a pretty good 2x. Century optics make a 1.6x that have very good glass, and there are even crappy ones on ebay for $150. Depends what your looking for I guess.

July 2nd, 2004, 09:35 PM	#213
Jarred Land DVX User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 281	yeah.. that Panasonic Balsa cam at NAB cost as much as a Porsche. Seriously. Canon's booth at Nab this year was strangley very boring looking, in fact so was the one at DVexpo. I have a feeling they are saving thier marketing pennies to really market the XL2.. Its will be exciting Im sure.

July 3rd, 2004, 09:51 AM	#216
Daniel Broadway Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alabama Posts: 165	Well, I use a Canon GL2. I don't use frame mode However, I film-look it in After Effects. Also, I'm using the GL2 to made a live action version of a Anime style fight in the sky. Imagine something similar to the fight between Neo and Smith at the end of Revolutions. SO what kind of profile can you deduce about me? Ha ha. Oh oh, let's get back on topic, go XL2! Give me 24p or give me death!

July 3rd, 2004, 09:55 AM	#217
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	Gosh, I think Canon has to come out with something super-revolutionary like 3-chip HDV this time around to stop the AGDVX-100 juggernaut - if it's just another interchangeable-lens SD 1/3" with say 24p, even with 16:9, Canon would just be "pulling up alongside" panasonic... i hope there will be a high-effective pixel count on the 3 chips at least - looking at the specs for the new panasonic gs400, man, it's amazing what panasonic is offering to the starving-artist indie guy who wants to make movies... Why would Canon be a part of the HDV collective and then not do anything on the camera side?

July 3rd, 2004, 12:12 PM	#218
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	I don't think we'll see anything "revolutionary" from canon on this camera. Canon's video division is a very small place...we're not talking sony or panasonic here...Canon BUYS most of its technology in this field (versus the still camera arena where they make everything). The xl1s replacement cam will most likely have the same panasonic chips as the dvx100, and an enhanced menu system not unlike that same camera. We might also hope for a flip out LCD, and I would bet that we'll get xlr inputs. And seeing as the only official statement about the camera (over a year ago) said that it would probably have 24p...I think thats a safe bet. After all that, the xl-whatever will be the best camera in it's market segment..period, because the strength of the xl camera series is in the PLATFORM, not in some new, hyped up technology.

July 3rd, 2004, 12:20 PM	#219
Nick Hiltgen Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,427	Unfortunately I agree with barry. The only thing that makes me think that it wouldn't be something like that is the fact that so many people (who apparently know what they're talking about insist that this is a camera that will blow us away, or will defintely hold it's market share for more then 6 months. I don't think a dvx 100 with 16:9 chips and an interchangable lens will do such a thing (unless maybe they bring out some sort of 3d lens...) So tell me all you sage advisors of everything canon out here, Am I looking for too much in hoping that the Canon camera is more then a gussied up dvx100(a)? What do you think?

July 3rd, 2004, 12:36 PM	#220
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	Nick Here's the thing... the market segment that these two cameras compete in is in the prosumer digital cinema area. The DVX is the first camera in this range to offer the resolution, progressive capture, and 24p components of this picture, but it's still basically in the form factor of an amateur camcorder. The xl1s is still the only camera in this market segment that looks, and acts and feels like a real camera...ok--professional camera...the only reason I still use my xl1s at all is because I will not give up my manual lens...the dvx can't offer you this kind of control. Now by marrying the best of what the DVX offers with the platform of the XL series...this is not a gussied up dvx...this is simply the best camera available under $10,000. That blows my mind. Barry

July 3rd, 2004, 12:44 PM	#222
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	contest....what contest...?

July 3rd, 2004, 02:39 PM	#224
Luis Caffesse Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 704	"if it's just another interchangeable-lens SD 1/3" with say 24p, even with 16:9, Canon would just be "pulling up alongside" panasonic... Just another? The DVX doesn't offer interchangeable lenses or true 16:9. If Canon pulls off the features you outlined, they would not only pull up alongside panasonic, they would leave them behind. A camera with all the features you mention would be the ultimate DV camera. Everyone keeps talking about HD and HDV, but honestly, I just keep waiting for a manufacturer to give us all the features we want in a 1/3" DV camera. Up to date, every camera seems handicapped in some way. If we could get the 24p, Gamma settings, LCD & XLRs of the DVX with the lens system and viewfinder options of an XL1, PLUS true 16:9 images...that camera would be the most complete 1/3" DV camera around. Not to mention, it would sell like hotcakes. Not exactly something to brush over, in my opinion. -Luis

July 3rd, 2004, 03:44 PM	#225
Daniel Broadway Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alabama Posts: 165	I agree. I doubt the XL2 will have HD. It might, but I kinda doubt it. It takes about 18 months to go from drawing boards to finished product. And HDV was only approved in like September 2003. Maybe October, I don't remember. However, if Canon new about HDV before it was actually approved. They might have something HD heading our way. If it shot 24p and was true 16:9, that would be pretty sweet to me.