Canon XL-H2- when?

[Jacques Mersereau]

Calling all Canon insiders - including J.B.

Any 'guesses' as to when the next revolutionary XL will debut?

Inquiring minds who are about to purchase Sony want to know.

J.

[Chris Hurd]

I'm not so sure that the XL line has much of a future. I think Canon will most likely move to a larger sized image sensor for their next pro-level video camera... maybe not as big as the full-frame 35mm sensor used in the EOS 5D Mk. II (hopefully so), but most likely whatever they do next will have an image sensor larger than 1/3rd inch.

The only way to continue the XL line is to limit the sensor size to 1/3rd inch, and I just don't see them doing that... I think it'll be a larger size chip. And if it's not 1/3rd inch, then it can't be called an XL. It'll have to be called something else, under a new model name and nomenclature.

So I think the question to be asking is, what will replace the XL line?

[Jacques Mersereau]

You are right Chris. Yes, that is what I meant. 1/3" chips are too limiting in terms of DOF and HD low light imaging.

Several years ago, this list was asked by Canon to provide user feedback concerning upgrades and added features users would like to see implemented. I said that there were two paths; evolutionary and revolutionary.

My evolutionary recommendations where to upgrade the XL with HD-SDI output, selectable wireframe viewfinder aspect ratios, etc. and keep the camera compatible with XL1 & XL2 accessories.

The "revolutionary" path was to produce a camcorder with single 35mm sensor that could be used with Canon 35mm glass.
The latter is what I am now waiting on, basically a RED for 1/3rd the money that is made by a veteran company.
The 5D MkII is very cool, but doesn't have all the features I need in a video camcorder and the studio I run is about to upgrade to Sony EX3s. However unlikely, I was hoping that Canon might get back in the game before this planned purchase.

Sorry I missed you at NAB.

Jacques

[Michael Galvan]

I'm wait for this new camera too!

I agree ... I don't see how they can't go with a larger sensor, especially with the success they had with the 5D Mark 2 and it's video mode.

I would think the sensor would at least be APS-C sized.

[Jack Zhang]

I'm thinking a move to Solid State and a solid video codec is in the future for everyone.

[Simon Beer]

Interesting thread, would be a great piece of kit to own.

Always been a fan of XL's and owned the XL1 and later XL2.

My guess is if Canon really are going to do this and this year it will be around October.

[Tony Davies-Patrick]

It would also be interesting if there will be new or updated XL optics than the original 20x and 6x lenses.

[Matthew Nayman]

A little bird told me... though I can neither confirm, nor deny...

XL-H2.. January, 2010. Full Frame 5Dmk2 sensor in XL style body, EF lens mount, 50mbit/sec AVCHD, CF cards, 24p-60p, sub 10k...

Take it or leave it,

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Matthew Nayman

XL-H2.. Full Frame 5Dmk2 sensor in XL style body...

The only way it can be called XL-anything is if it has 1/3rd-inch chips.

If it's going to have the 5D2 sensor, then it won't be an XL. It'll have some other designation.

[Peter Moretti]

Originally Posted by Matthew Nayman

A little bird told me... though I can neither confirm, nor deny...

XL-H2.. January, 2010. Full Frame 5Dmk2 sensor in XL style body, EF lens mount, 50mbit/sec AVCHD, CF cards, 24p-60p, sub 10k...

Take it or leave it,

I think we are all underestimating one aspect of this full or APC sized sensor camera. It will need a lens (or a few of them).

Giving the camera an EF mount does not make the current offerings of EOS lenses video camera lenses. So Canon is going to have to come out with a new line of lenses, and the ? becomes what size sensor do they make those lenses for? 1/2, 2/3, ACP, FF?

It's not so easy a ?. For example, 2/3 is lighter and should be cheaper. But FF could use some existing EOS lens parts and would be more future proof.

[Michael Galvan]

Well I would think that if they are changing sensor size, it would probably be APS-C or Full Frame. They know that once they change sensor size, they will have to redo their entire video lens lineup again. So they must look at what will last in the long run ...

I suppose 2/3" is an option too, given the lenses they have in the market place for such.

But with the huge success of the 5D Mark II and it's video, I can't see them making their top of the line HD Camcorder (which also will cost more than many Mark II's together) any less.

[Peter Moretti]

I really wonder how Canon will solve this problem.

1/2 would be seen as only matching what Sony did two years ago.

But going 2/3rd's wouldn't mean using its existing FJs 2/3rd's HD line. Those are $18K a piece true cine prime lenses.

ASP-C means creating a line of cine-esque lenses for a format size that's considered less than what the 5DMII currently offers.

But going from 1/3 to full frame would be a huge jump. And Canon is now going to make full frame professional video lenses w/ an EOS mount?

None of it works out very smoothly, IMHO. I'm very curious to see what they'll decide.

Perhaps they try to punt on the whole lens line issue, by offering only a fixed zoom AF version and seei how long they can get away with that. (In which case I guess it wouldn't be an XL replacement.)

[Chris Hurd]

The glass is indeed the elephant in the room for all of these possible-XL-replacement speculation threads. Because 35mm still photography lenses don't have zoom motors, they're not going to be viable as kit lenses for whatever the XH / XL replacement will be.

Think: if the sensor size is 35mm full frame, as it is on the EOS 5D Mk.II, what kind of video lens would that require, and at what cost? Keeping in mind how large in circumference the front objective will have to be, and that the faster and wider the lens, and the higher the zoom ratio, the larger diameter that glass will require and therefore the more expensive it will be.

Also consider how expensive Canon's L-series of fast telephoto EF primes are. Then you'll get some indication of how the real limiting factor of an XL replacement isn't the sensor so much as it is the lens. The practicality of the lens requirements -- that it'll have to be motorized, will most likely include IS, will need a field of view at the wide end comparable to the mid-thirties in 35mm, and have some kind of usable zoom ratio of at least 5x or so, and not throw the camera cost off balance -- are the factors which will ultimately dictate the size of the sensor that Canon selects.

[Matt Davis]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

the real limiting factor of an XL replacement isn't the sensor so much as it is the lens.

If I were Canon, looking at the HPX300, the HM-700 and the EX3 in one corner and Scarlet and the EOS in another, I'd probably look at putting a half inch chip into an XL-H form factor, using the existing good Canon half-inch glass. That would be head to head with Sony (winning if it does SD), and beating Panasonic and JVC with its bigger chip. As soon as you use something larger than 1/3", you can't go back.

Going 'way out there' with a mix of handycam and EOS isn't going to interest the mass market, but delivering a neat little 'full-on' camera with all the broadcast credentials would be an easy sell to an ever widening industrial/web market.

Oh yes, and SDHC rather than CF or SxS.

[Steve Phillipps]

Never seen a thread, even in Area 51, where so little rumour is out there to add to the discussion! Nobody seems to have anything to go on at all. Sounds like there's absolutely no hint coming from Canon, which makes me think there really is no surprise on the horizon, and that they'll just stick to XL-H1 and EOS 5d for now.
Steve