Canon XL-H2- when?

David Heath · August 24th, 2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Moretti

It's probably AVC-Intra, no?

Licensing apart, I'd say far more likely to be 50Mbs MPEG2. AVC-Intra 50 is subsampled and 4:2:0 - XDCAM 4:2:2 50Mbs isn't. AVC-Intra 50 is not fully approved by the EBU - XDCAM 4:2:2 50Mbs is. Seems like a far more efficient use of 50Mbs of bandwidth to me.

It may not be directly the same as Sonys codec, but may be 50 Mbs MPEG2 wrapped differently (as with the basic JVC HM700 and the 35Mbs codec)

Peter Moretti · August 24th, 2009, 09:29 PM

Sorry guys, I didn't realize AVC-Intra was proprietary to Panasonic. My bad.

Floris van Eck · September 1st, 2009, 07:36 AM

I hope to hold the XL-H2 at IBC in a week or two.

But I don't hold my breath.

Louis Maddalena · September 2nd, 2009, 05:25 PM

Although I hope to see a 5D mark II sensor in a video body, with an EOS mount and some EOS motorized zoom lenses, I also hope they don't rush it. I hope they take all the complaints, concerns and praises that they can from the 5D user base, look at what they are creating and what they want to have the most. Then work from there. I don't think the 5D has been around long enough to have gotten all these comment and concerns to build into a full video camera yet, although if they hang out here or a number of other forums on the internet they probably have a good idea.

I really want this dream video camera body with the 5D tech, some less features that are photo specific and some more features that we would like in a video camera, although I don't want them to release a product that later this year we are all complaining about because it doesn't do this, or it doesn't do that and how could they release a camera that is for professionals that doesn't do these specific things.

I think with the 7D that has just come out, we should wait for canon to learn from that camera and those mistakes, before they dive into throwing this new technology into video cameras that we all need to make our living off of. Its not like the SLR, those are all great cameras, but we all have our regular every day XL-H1's or our XH-A/G1's as a fall back, knowing that they work this way, or that way. This way we won't have to abandon canon for EX3's just because they no longer make a solid product... I don't want the Canon camera on the market to be a "test", to see what prosumers would want in their camera. Although we all know that is a FF sensor and an EOS mount, but that really loses a lot of the features we are already used to.

Chris Hurd · September 3rd, 2009, 08:28 AM

Good points, Louis... I still think the biggest challenge to this concept is the lens. For videography / filmmaking / any kind of motion pictures, a still photo EF lens is not enough. The lens needs to have a motorized zoom and a decent zoom ratio. Whether the sensor size is FF or APS-C, even a fast 10x lens will be a seemingly expensive proposition. In my opinion, with the 7D shipping in less than a month and the 5D Mk. II having been out for nine months, the reason why we haven't yet seen a dedicated video camera equivalent from Canon is the issue of the video lens.

Jim Martin · September 3rd, 2009, 11:10 AM

Chris-
I would add that if a new camera arrives next year with a full size chip, aside from figuring out the lens situation, I would hope Canon would have adapters availible to use film prime lenses i.e. PL Mount. Wouldn't that be nice...

Jim Martin

ps- How's things in the Lone Star state? Still a little smokey here in LA.

Pete Bauer · September 3rd, 2009, 04:13 PM

And for a VIDEO camera, I'll reiterate my plea for NO rolling shutter artifacts. For artistic work, one can generally work around it. For some documentary work of fast moving objects/events, it is an unacceptable limitation. As I told the Canon reps at NAB last spring, other nice HD cameras already do rolling shutter. Don't be "me too." Advance the the technology and put out a larger sensor, very low light video camera withOUT rolling shutter and you won't be able to build enough of them.

Michael Galvan · September 3rd, 2009, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Martin

Chris-
I would add that if a new camera arrives next year with a full size chip, aside from figuring out the lens situation, I would hope Canon would have adapters availible to use film prime lenses i.e. PL Mount. Wouldn't that be nice...

Jim Martin

ps- How's things in the Lone Star state? Still a little smokey here in LA.

So I am hoping this camera will actually be APS-C sized for this very reason!

Brett Sherman · September 4th, 2009, 09:38 AM

I'd second the APS-C size sensor. And hopefully the Canon 7D is an indication they're moving in this direction. It's going to be a lot easier to build a decent, lightweight and affordable lens for this sensor size rather than a FF 35mm sensor. Focusing would be a lot easier too.

I like shallow DOF as much as the next person, but from a practical standpoint there is no way I want to attempt to focus in a run and gun scenario with a FF 35mm sensor. The indie filmmaker market isn't the only market out there. And personally, I think they're a little too obsessed with shallow DOF. For me APS-C or 4/3 is the ideal balance of DOF control, light sensitivity, lens compatibility and ability to focus.

Brett Sherman · September 4th, 2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Whether the sensor size is FF or APS-C, even a fast 10x lens will be a seemingly expensive proposition. I

While it doesn't have a servo zoom on it. The stock lens on the Panasonic GH1 seems like a reasonable compromise of quality and functionality. I would think it should be possible to make something like that for APS-C size. You could add a digital 2X extender assuming the chip would have some resolution to burn. So that would give you 28mm-560mm out of the box.

Jeff Kellam · September 4th, 2009, 09:58 AM

I hope Canon suprises us and develops a 3-chip APS-C sensor for the camera. A single chip, bayer filter camera seems so retro.

Chris Hurd · September 4th, 2009, 02:39 PM

To me, three-chip is even more retro than single-chip... these days there's no significant difference between them in color accuracy like there used to be. A single-chip design can be larger and less expensive than a three-chip design.

Peter Moretti · September 6th, 2009, 03:12 AM

Chris, that's true for 4:2:2 acquisition. But we really don't have a lot of examples comparing 3-chip 4:4:4 to Bayer 4:4:4 for the same size chip.

Bill Koehler · September 6th, 2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett Sherman

While it doesn't have a servo zoom on it. The stock lens on the Panasonic GH1 seems like a reasonable compromise of quality and functionality. I would think it should be possible to make something like that for APS-C size. You could add a digital 2X extender assuming the chip would have some resolution to burn. So that would give you 28mm-560mm out of the box.

Something that builds on this as a foundation?

Canon | 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6L IS USM Autofocus Lens | 9322A002AA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam

I hope Canon suprises us and develops a 3-chip APS-C sensor for the camera. A single chip, bayer filter camera seems so retro.

Do you realize just how huge that total sensor block would be?

David Heath · September 6th, 2009, 04:06 PM

Ok it's Area 51, but I think this is going too much along the lines of "what I'd like to see" and not enough of the lines are "what's likely to happen? What would make business sense for Canon?"

And my gut feeling is that the next step is more likely to be something along the lines of the EX or the HPX301 - CMOS, 1920x1080 three chip, and 1/2" 0r 1/3". (And I hope 1/2") But we'll see.

In a way, it's the codec and media choice I see more interesting, and the more I think about 50Mbs MPEG2 on to Compact Flash, the cleverer a move it would be. Think about it. Cheap media, unlike SxS or P2. Better codec than the EX or the JVC cameras, giving 4:2:2. Better quality, and none of the editing problems of AVC-HD.

The other thing I would like to see are all three main formats (and the 60Hz equivalents): 1080i/25, 1080p/25, and 720p/50.

August 24th, 2009, 09:29 PM	#47
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	Sorry guys, I didn't realize AVC-Intra was proprietary to Panasonic. My bad. __________________ Avid Media Composer 3.1.3. Boris Red and Continuum Complete. Vegas 8.0c. TMPGEnc Xpress Pro 4.0

September 3rd, 2009, 08:28 AM	#50
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Good points, Louis... I still think the biggest challenge to this concept is the lens. For videography / filmmaking / any kind of motion pictures, a still photo EF lens is not enough. The lens needs to have a motorized zoom and a decent zoom ratio. Whether the sensor size is FF or APS-C, even a fast 10x lens will be a seemingly expensive proposition. In my opinion, with the 7D shipping in less than a month and the 5D Mk. II having been out for nine months, the reason why we haven't yet seen a dedicated video camera equivalent from Canon is the issue of the video lens. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 3rd, 2009, 04:13 PM	#52
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	And for a VIDEO camera, I'll reiterate my plea for NO rolling shutter artifacts. For artistic work, one can generally work around it. For some documentary work of fast moving objects/events, it is an unacceptable limitation. As I told the Canon reps at NAB last spring, other nice HD cameras already do rolling shutter. Don't be "me too." Advance the the technology and put out a larger sensor, very low light video camera withOUT rolling shutter and you won't be able to build enough of them. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

September 4th, 2009, 09:58 AM	#56
Jeff Kellam Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 656	I hope Canon suprises us and develops a 3-chip APS-C sensor for the camera. A single chip, bayer filter camera seems so retro. __________________ Panasonic HMC150/Canon A1/JVC HD1/Sony Vegas 8.0c

September 4th, 2009, 02:39 PM	#57
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	To me, three-chip is even more retro than single-chip... these days there's no significant difference between them in color accuracy like there used to be. A single-chip design can be larger and less expensive than a three-chip design. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 1st, 2009, 07:36 AM	#48
Floris van Eck Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 993	I hope to hold the XL-H2 at IBC in a week or two. But I don't hold my breath.

September 2nd, 2009, 05:25 PM	#49
Louis Maddalena Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NYC Area. Posts: 550	Although I hope to see a 5D mark II sensor in a video body, with an EOS mount and some EOS motorized zoom lenses, I also hope they don't rush it. I hope they take all the complaints, concerns and praises that they can from the 5D user base, look at what they are creating and what they want to have the most. Then work from there. I don't think the 5D has been around long enough to have gotten all these comment and concerns to build into a full video camera yet, although if they hang out here or a number of other forums on the internet they probably have a good idea. I really want this dream video camera body with the 5D tech, some less features that are photo specific and some more features that we would like in a video camera, although I don't want them to release a product that later this year we are all complaining about because it doesn't do this, or it doesn't do that and how could they release a camera that is for professionals that doesn't do these specific things. I think with the 7D that has just come out, we should wait for canon to learn from that camera and those mistakes, before they dive into throwing this new technology into video cameras that we all need to make our living off of. Its not like the SLR, those are all great cameras, but we all have our regular every day XL-H1's or our XH-A/G1's as a fall back, knowing that they work this way, or that way. This way we won't have to abandon canon for EX3's just because they no longer make a solid product... I don't want the Canon camera on the market to be a "test", to see what prosumers would want in their camera. Although we all know that is a FF sensor and an EOS mount, but that really loses a lot of the features we are already used to.

September 3rd, 2009, 11:10 AM	#51
Jim Martin Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Burbank, CA 91502 Posts: 949	Chris- I would add that if a new camera arrives next year with a full size chip, aside from figuring out the lens situation, I would hope Canon would have adapters availible to use film prime lenses i.e. PL Mount. Wouldn't that be nice... Jim Martin ps- How's things in the Lone Star state? Still a little smokey here in LA.

September 4th, 2009, 09:38 AM	#54
Brett Sherman Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mount Rainier, MD Posts: 428	I'd second the APS-C size sensor. And hopefully the Canon 7D is an indication they're moving in this direction. It's going to be a lot easier to build a decent, lightweight and affordable lens for this sensor size rather than a FF 35mm sensor. Focusing would be a lot easier too. I like shallow DOF as much as the next person, but from a practical standpoint there is no way I want to attempt to focus in a run and gun scenario with a FF 35mm sensor. The indie filmmaker market isn't the only market out there. And personally, I think they're a little too obsessed with shallow DOF. For me APS-C or 4/3 is the ideal balance of DOF control, light sensitivity, lens compatibility and ability to focus.

September 6th, 2009, 03:12 AM	#58
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	Chris, that's true for 4:2:2 acquisition. But we really don't have a lot of examples comparing 3-chip 4:4:4 to Bayer 4:4:4 for the same size chip. __________________ Avid Media Composer 3.1.3. Boris Red and Continuum Complete. Vegas 8.0c. TMPGEnc Xpress Pro 4.0

September 6th, 2009, 04:06 PM	#60
David Heath Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,699	Ok it's Area 51, but I think this is going too much along the lines of "what I'd like to see" and not enough of the lines are "what's likely to happen? What would make business sense for Canon?" And my gut feeling is that the next step is more likely to be something along the lines of the EX or the HPX301 - CMOS, 1920x1080 three chip, and 1/2" 0r 1/3". (And I hope 1/2") But we'll see. In a way, it's the codec and media choice I see more interesting, and the more I think about 50Mbs MPEG2 on to Compact Flash, the cleverer a move it would be. Think about it. Cheap media, unlike SxS or P2. Better codec than the EX or the JVC cameras, giving 4:2:2. Better quality, and none of the editing problems of AVC-HD. The other thing I would like to see are all three main formats (and the 60Hz equivalents): 1080i/25, 1080p/25, and 720p/50.